Autos Audis

Question:

I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto bliss?

Response:

Aug 2004 with message > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual > tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have > been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty > understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Seems like with a manual transmission, you KNOW it’s going to need to be fixed every so often (clutch related parts wearing out) … If something is wrong with it, they can fix just that part.. With automatics, if something is wrong, seems like the whole damn thing needs to be rebuilt .. and you never know when that’s gonna happen, and it’s hella expensive. With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. For example, when turning left across oncoming traffic.. In my AT car, I punch the gas and hope and pray it won’t lurch forward like it’s in 2nd gear or something. MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. All car thieves know how to drive an automatic.. Not all know how to drive a stick Take this article, for example: http://tinyurl.com/68fjo — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!

Response:

>> With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet?

If done properly (rev and either side-step or quickly slip clutch), manuals are faster. In part since they are more efficient, also they tend to have have tighter ratios (but not always now with 6-speed autos).   But for normal driving, you can probably be faster with an auto since they torque multiply. > I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer > predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. >So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

Yeah, but the majority (though not all) of them don’t hold a gear, they’ll upshift when at redline. Some even before.  And they also tend to shift pretty slowly.  None of these slushbox automanuals are as good as a manual.  More lossy.  Slow shifts.  I haven’t found an automanual I like. It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any sporting car.

Response:

>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?

sure. find someone with a 96-00 civic dx hatch, auto tranny. no mods. guaranteed ill outaccellerate them. auto trannies are getting better, more gears, etc. but you cant rev to the sweet spot and drop the clutch like a good ol fashioned stick. im sure mr bone will be around to school you some more. >MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started > Ah, in the days before computerized everything.  There isn’t a car built > today that can be roll-started.

i just roll started a 98 corolla the other week. bad (OEM!)battery, girl had to get home. its got FI, and OBD2. no problems, she made it home, and her hubby changed the battery. > Strike 2.

seems like youre whiffing, so far. >I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer >predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. > So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

yeah- that gimmick is going the way of LCD dashboards and voices saying "your door is ajar". its good for the pooseys that buy porsches but dont know how to drive stick- makes em feel like theyre "doing something". > Strike 3…

come back when you have some real-world experience, and try again.

Response:

1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Response:

a few points: 1.  If you spend a great deal of your day in stop-and-go traffic, get back over into the dark side, or a hybrid CVT car if circumstances allow. 2.  The shift points of auto’s are set by their engineers for a best guess for most drivers and environments.  Performance driving, twisty curvy mountain roads demand that you decide onthe shift points.  You know the exact amount of efficiency or performance you want from one second to another and no automatic transmission can anticipate you gunning the motor. 3.  When going down proper hills, a manual tranny takes the heat off of the brakes by giving u access to the engine friction. 4.  I believe modern manual cars can still be push started.  I do it every morning rolling down the hill of my parking lot in my ‘97 Jetta TDI. 5.  Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho.  There is a loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start them, and they are more expensive. regards, KL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Response:

>1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car.

Atleast $500 cheaper, but if you sit in traffic a lot and have to pay someone to do your clutch replacements, the costs can add up.  When I lived in LA, I was always creeping or stop/go.  So a clutch every 20-30k isn’t necessarily cheaper.. >2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think.

Maybe..  The manual is probably a bit less labor to disassemble, but I suspect individual hard part costs are comparable.. >I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.

They tow more (due to torque converter multiplication), are more convenient to drive, shift smoothely, attempt to maximize fuel economy, and limit emissions.. I think I’ll stick to my automatic .. as I sit in traffic. > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Note: To reply, replace the word ’spam’ embedded in return address with ‘mail’. N37.3 W122.0

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

I prefer to drive manual mainly because shifting and doing footwork is kind of fun, and it makes me feel smug.  I don’t really get tired of it, even in stop and go traffic.  I think that unless you really good, you can drive more smoothly and get better "lap times" in an automatic.  Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.

Response:

>> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?

Yes.  Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s have, any of them can have such a system.  They just give them proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them (IMHO).

Response:

Basically like an electronic version of VW’s "Autostick" tranny from the 1960s. — KWW ‘65 Beetle (Jenny the IOC) ‘64 Beetle (TBD the Blue Wave)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >> auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic? > Yes.  Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s > have, any of them can have such a system.  They just give them > proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them > (IMHO).

Response:

>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car.   > And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) > and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any > sporting car. > This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your > heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves

I don’t know if you are referring to a double clutch or not, but heel toeing and rev matching save wear on the clutch and synchros. (and why would you > want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing > out the user replaceable brake pads? ).

My theory in terms of wearing out the engine vs wearing out the brakes is: It’s better to not be able to go than not be able to stop. Just kidding.

Response:

>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. >This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your >heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you >want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing >out the user replaceable brake pads? )

You do NOT use the trans or engine for braking.  That’s the whole point of the rev-matching in heal-toe.  It is also not really about the synchro. Perhaps you are thinking about double-clutching (where again, there is no wear or engine/trans braking)?  Heal-toe is still useful for racing, where I am (badly) trying to apply it.  Yes, on a track or autoX.  Say you are approaching a 3rd gear turn in 4th. You first brake, and rev-match your downshift to third while still braking.  Hit the apex, and then let her fly out.   If you don’t heal-toe, you either: a) Have to wait till finished braking to change gears, losing valuable accel time, or b) You change gears without rev-match sending a jolt to your drivetrain which should have the tires already at full traction.   You seriously risk disturbing the car in mid-turn, ie spin out. Basically, if you don’t heal-toe in racing, you simply are losing time.

Response:

> 1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. > 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. > I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.

When will that be, Caroline?

Response:

<snip>  > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself,

I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least they used to). > and also, the car > sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.

Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me <g>)

Response:

> <snip> >  > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, > I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual > in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least > they used to).

That’s coz you had to get it started going first, by engaging the clutch and pressing the gas.  Then it makes sense that the car is "just coasting along" when you aren’t pushing the pedals anymore.  With an auto, you can let go of the brake ("the car is already stopped, why should I need to use the brakes anymore?") and suddenly the car will start moving by itself again. > and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by > surprise. > Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving > an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me > <g>)

I mean, you’re driving up a hill, and suddenly the car downshifts and you surge forwards

Response:

>> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that".  No, > you think you have to come up with bullshit justifications, > seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit > justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit > to it.

Godwin’s 2nd law must be that when one party to a Usenet debate accuses the other of being gay, then he loses (automatically, not manually).

Response:

> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?

Response:

> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car.

This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing out the user replaceable brake pads? ). My first AT was my ‘88 Integra & I loved it – I wouldn’t consider a manual for the NYC area these days. YMMV (of course)  ;)

Response:

> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that".  No, you > think you have to come up with bullshit justifications,

seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit to it.

Response:

>>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet? > Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then > releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration

and if i held the gas and clutch down, then released the clutch quickly? you wouldnt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> In article > Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? > The point is, it doesn’t come from the manufacturer that way.

Oh. I see. So… "No, no good reason that people shouldn’t modify their cars to suit themselves", other that it seems to bother an anonomous USENET poster?

Response:

@text.usenetserver.com: > With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?

Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!

Response:

>5.  Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho.  There is a >loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking >thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start >them, and they are more expensive.

The DSG in some VW/Audi cars and the SMG in some BMW cars have more direct linkages without torque converters.  However, most automatic transmissions with enhanced manual shift control do have torque converters, which would be the main negative point for those who don’t like the (real or perceived) "slushiness" of torque converters. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Response:

>What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto >bliss?

Manual advantages: Better fuel economy. Faster acceleration. Lower cost. Less expensive repairs (clutch vs. rebuild automatic transmission). For Hondas, better reliability (look for threads about Accord, TL, and         Odyssey automatic transmissions failing). Manual disadvantages: Difficult or impossible for a person with disability to drive. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Response:

> > I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. > Absolutely! > But I just read someone the other day asking about modifying a Honda > minivan to have a manual transmission–for no other reason than he and > his wife have always driven manual transmissions, and they see no reason > to change that now–DESPITE the fact that they’re now driving a minivan. > They have no concept of tools and appropriateness.  They don’t have a > clue about anything.

Please explain revelevance. Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? Or is this based on your preconceptions of van drivers?

Response:

Question:

I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto bliss?

Response:

Aug 2004 with message > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual > tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have > been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty > understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Seems like with a manual transmission, you KNOW it’s going to need to be fixed every so often (clutch related parts wearing out) … If something is wrong with it, they can fix just that part.. With automatics, if something is wrong, seems like the whole damn thing needs to be rebuilt .. and you never know when that’s gonna happen, and it’s hella expensive. With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. For example, when turning left across oncoming traffic.. In my AT car, I punch the gas and hope and pray it won’t lurch forward like it’s in 2nd gear or something. MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. All car thieves know how to drive an automatic.. Not all know how to drive a stick Take this article, for example: http://tinyurl.com/68fjo — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!

Response:

>> With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet?

If done properly (rev and either side-step or quickly slip clutch), manuals are faster. In part since they are more efficient, also they tend to have have tighter ratios (but not always now with 6-speed autos).   But for normal driving, you can probably be faster with an auto since they torque multiply. > I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer > predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. >So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

Yeah, but the majority (though not all) of them don’t hold a gear, they’ll upshift when at redline. Some even before.  And they also tend to shift pretty slowly.  None of these slushbox automanuals are as good as a manual.  More lossy.  Slow shifts.  I haven’t found an automanual I like. It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any sporting car.

Response:

>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?

sure. find someone with a 96-00 civic dx hatch, auto tranny. no mods. guaranteed ill outaccellerate them. auto trannies are getting better, more gears, etc. but you cant rev to the sweet spot and drop the clutch like a good ol fashioned stick. im sure mr bone will be around to school you some more. >MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started > Ah, in the days before computerized everything.  There isn’t a car built > today that can be roll-started.

i just roll started a 98 corolla the other week. bad (OEM!)battery, girl had to get home. its got FI, and OBD2. no problems, she made it home, and her hubby changed the battery. > Strike 2.

seems like youre whiffing, so far. >I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer >predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. > So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

yeah- that gimmick is going the way of LCD dashboards and voices saying "your door is ajar". its good for the pooseys that buy porsches but dont know how to drive stick- makes em feel like theyre "doing something". > Strike 3…

come back when you have some real-world experience, and try again.

Response:

1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Response:

a few points: 1.  If you spend a great deal of your day in stop-and-go traffic, get back over into the dark side, or a hybrid CVT car if circumstances allow. 2.  The shift points of auto’s are set by their engineers for a best guess for most drivers and environments.  Performance driving, twisty curvy mountain roads demand that you decide onthe shift points.  You know the exact amount of efficiency or performance you want from one second to another and no automatic transmission can anticipate you gunning the motor. 3.  When going down proper hills, a manual tranny takes the heat off of the brakes by giving u access to the engine friction. 4.  I believe modern manual cars can still be push started.  I do it every morning rolling down the hill of my parking lot in my ‘97 Jetta TDI. 5.  Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho.  There is a loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start them, and they are more expensive. regards, KL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Response:

>1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car.

Atleast $500 cheaper, but if you sit in traffic a lot and have to pay someone to do your clutch replacements, the costs can add up.  When I lived in LA, I was always creeping or stop/go.  So a clutch every 20-30k isn’t necessarily cheaper.. >2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think.

Maybe..  The manual is probably a bit less labor to disassemble, but I suspect individual hard part costs are comparable.. >I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.

They tow more (due to torque converter multiplication), are more convenient to drive, shift smoothely, attempt to maximize fuel economy, and limit emissions.. I think I’ll stick to my automatic .. as I sit in traffic. > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

Note: To reply, replace the word ’spam’ embedded in return address with ‘mail’. N37.3 W122.0

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?

I prefer to drive manual mainly because shifting and doing footwork is kind of fun, and it makes me feel smug.  I don’t really get tired of it, even in stop and go traffic.  I think that unless you really good, you can drive more smoothly and get better "lap times" in an automatic.  Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.

Response:

>> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?

Yes.  Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s have, any of them can have such a system.  They just give them proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them (IMHO).

Response:

Basically like an electronic version of VW’s "Autostick" tranny from the 1960s. — KWW ‘65 Beetle (Jenny the IOC) ‘64 Beetle (TBD the Blue Wave)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >> auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic? > Yes.  Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s > have, any of them can have such a system.  They just give them > proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them > (IMHO).

Response:

>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car.   > And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) > and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any > sporting car. > This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your > heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves

I don’t know if you are referring to a double clutch or not, but heel toeing and rev matching save wear on the clutch and synchros. (and why would you > want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing > out the user replaceable brake pads? ).

My theory in terms of wearing out the engine vs wearing out the brakes is: It’s better to not be able to go than not be able to stop. Just kidding.

Response:

>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. >This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your >heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you >want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing >out the user replaceable brake pads? )

You do NOT use the trans or engine for braking.  That’s the whole point of the rev-matching in heal-toe.  It is also not really about the synchro. Perhaps you are thinking about double-clutching (where again, there is no wear or engine/trans braking)?  Heal-toe is still useful for racing, where I am (badly) trying to apply it.  Yes, on a track or autoX.  Say you are approaching a 3rd gear turn in 4th. You first brake, and rev-match your downshift to third while still braking.  Hit the apex, and then let her fly out.   If you don’t heal-toe, you either: a) Have to wait till finished braking to change gears, losing valuable accel time, or b) You change gears without rev-match sending a jolt to your drivetrain which should have the tires already at full traction.   You seriously risk disturbing the car in mid-turn, ie spin out. Basically, if you don’t heal-toe in racing, you simply are losing time.

Response:

> 1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. > 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. > I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.

When will that be, Caroline?

Response:

<snip>  > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself,

I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least they used to). > and also, the car > sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.

Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me <g>)

Response:

> <snip> >  > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, > I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual > in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least > they used to).

That’s coz you had to get it started going first, by engaging the clutch and pressing the gas.  Then it makes sense that the car is "just coasting along" when you aren’t pushing the pedals anymore.  With an auto, you can let go of the brake ("the car is already stopped, why should I need to use the brakes anymore?") and suddenly the car will start moving by itself again. > and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by > surprise. > Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving > an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me > <g>)

I mean, you’re driving up a hill, and suddenly the car downshifts and you surge forwards

Response:

>> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that".  No, > you think you have to come up with bullshit justifications, > seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit > justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit > to it.

Godwin’s 2nd law must be that when one party to a Usenet debate accuses the other of being gay, then he loses (automatically, not manually).

Response:

> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.

Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?

Response:

> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car.  And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching.  I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car.

This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing out the user replaceable brake pads? ). My first AT was my ‘88 Integra & I loved it – I wouldn’t consider a manual for the NYC area these days. YMMV (of course)  ;)

Response:

> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that".  No, you > think you have to come up with bullshit justifications,

seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit to it.

Response:

>>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet? > Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then > releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration

and if i held the gas and clutch down, then released the clutch quickly? you wouldnt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> In article > Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? > The point is, it doesn’t come from the manufacturer that way.

Oh. I see. So… "No, no good reason that people shouldn’t modify their cars to suit themselves", other that it seems to bother an anonomous USENET poster?

Response:

@text.usenetserver.com: > With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?

Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!

Response:

>5.  Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho.  There is a >loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking >thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start >them, and they are more expensive.

The DSG in some VW/Audi cars and the SMG in some BMW cars have more direct linkages without torque converters.  However, most automatic transmissions with enhanced manual shift control do have torque converters, which would be the main negative point for those who don’t like the (real or perceived) "slushiness" of torque converters. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Response:

>What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto >bliss?

Manual advantages: Better fuel economy. Faster acceleration. Lower cost. Less expensive repairs (clutch vs. rebuild automatic transmission). For Hondas, better reliability (look for threads about Accord, TL, and         Odyssey automatic transmissions failing). Manual disadvantages: Difficult or impossible for a person with disability to drive. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Response:

> > I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. > Absolutely! > But I just read someone the other day asking about modifying a Honda > minivan to have a manual transmission–for no other reason than he and > his wife have always driven manual transmissions, and they see no reason > to change that now–DESPITE the fact that they’re now driving a minivan. > They have no concept of tools and appropriateness.  They don’t have a > clue about anything.

Please explain revelevance. Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? Or is this based on your preconceptions of van drivers?

Response:

Question:

> >Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW >six in any case > I’d agree for the most part. But the 3.2 is still a good engine and the six in > the NSX is sweet.

I have not had the pleasure of driving the NSX.  And it might be a good engine, but for smoothness, it’s really hard to beat that I6 in a BMW. >Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent >torque steer > Audi (and to a degree, VW as well) seems to have more or less killed the torque > steer problem in their cars.

Good engineering solves problems. > However, Volvo’s S80 T6 and the Saabs I have > driven had it in abundance.

I drove a Viggen that just about tore the wheel out of my hands.  FWD + a lot of power = unfriendly driver. > The big problem I found with the TL was the "pogo" > ride on some roads. Audi’s FWD system is better here, although I’m not sure why > because the Accord and TL have double wishbones at all four corners and the old > TL Type S coupe had great handling.

Again, it’s engineering.  That pogo is just a soft suspension.  It’s a luxury wannabe, after all.  Ever ridden in a Buick?  That Dynaride system is enough to give you motion sickness. >The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the >car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy. > Audi should’ve stuck with a turbo-5. But I’ve seen six-speed 3.0 Quattros dip > as low as 6.5 seconds in 0-60 tests though.

That big motor still has negative effects on chassis dynamics.  Even though the 3.0 is faster in a line, the 1.8T feels more nimble, and better balanced.  I am almost sure that raw mass has everything to do with that. >Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the >same league. > As far as what’s avaliable right now, I’ll agree for the most part. But I’ve > seen tuned SVT Focus and Type R Integra leave 6-cylinder RWD cars (Bimmers > included) in the dust on twisty mountain passes.

I would suggest the difference is the driver.  But a car with less mass can usually do pretty good things.  The type R has a very favorable mass/weight in comparison to just about any BMW.  A good driver could be quite competetive, I think. >LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a >trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? >Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Get a Gti VR6 or an R32. The VR6 sounds sweet and they’re quick.

I’ve driven the Jetta with the VR6, and it is quite nice, but it’s still a front-drive car, and tuned for understeer.  I have not had the pleasure of an R32, nor will I (probably.)  But listen to an Alfa 2.5 for sweet V6 music.  Or an M3 for I6 song.  Heck, even the Porsche V8 or the 3.0 I4 in the 944 sound a heck of a lot better than just about any VAG product.  From the outside, at least.  From the inside, well, an air-cooled flat-6 is just about the best music that real people can afford. (A 308 makes some nice noises, but you have to be able to print your own money if you want the sweet sound to not turn sour in a hurry, LOL.)  Most luxury cars don’t give you much appreciation for what’s happening under the hood, and Japanese cars are really good at insulating the cabin occupants from mechanical noise.  In the Accord I used to own, I’d have to look at the tach to see if the damn thing was running. — Jonesy

Response:

> I prefer to call you Eric;

That’s why I call you a moron.  I’ve given you my nearly-full name (my middle name can be had from a Google search) and you still persist in being dumb.  If it’s not because you’re a moron, then what could be the answer? > I am too ashamed, having to share my first name > with a frustrated retard like you.

And you’re complaining about gratuitous insults?  I love irony… >  This thread is just another evidence; > what started as a normal thread finishes AGAIN with gratuitous insults from > your part.

A normal thread in which you bash Audi (again.)  Yeah, I can see how that might be the case in your fantasy world.  I’m sure a Google groups search in this ng will find some instance in which you recommend an Audi over some Honda product.  I’d take bets against that.  Any thread in which you participate is by definition abnormal. See above about how my insults are spot-on, and not gratuitous in the least. >  End here.

That would be great advice for you to take.  I will just have to keep pointing out your trollish nature, and that your Audi "advice" has no credibility. — Jonesy

Response:

I prefer to call you Eric; I am too ashamed, having to share my first name with a frustrated retard like you.  This thread is just another evidence; what started as a normal thread finishes AGAIN with gratuitous insults from your part.  End here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jeez, you are terribly slow, aren’t you? > — > Robert F. Jones (duh, you silly moron)

Response:

>Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW >six in any case

I’d agree for the most part. But the 3.2 is still a good engine and the six in the NSX is sweet. >Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent >torque steer

Audi (and to a degree, VW as well) seems to have more or less killed the torque steer problem in their cars. However, Volvo’s S80 T6 and the Saabs I have driven had it in abundance. The big problem I found with the TL was the "pogo" ride on some roads. Audi’s FWD system is better here, although I’m not sure why because the Accord and TL have double wishbones at all four corners and the old TL Type S coupe had great handling. >The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the >car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy.

Audi should’ve stuck with a turbo-5. But I’ve seen six-speed 3.0 Quattros dip as low as 6.5 seconds in 0-60 tests though. >Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the >same league.

As far as what’s avaliable right now, I’ll agree for the most part. But I’ve seen tuned SVT Focus and Type R Integra leave 6-cylinder RWD cars (Bimmers included) in the dust on twisty mountain passes. >LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a >trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? >Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL.

Get a Gti VR6 or an R32. The VR6 sounds sweet and they’re quick.

Response:

Yes! that i what I mean.  Thanks for clearing that up.

> BMW uses flat 6’s …. > They do?  Porsche use flat sixes, BMW use In-line sixes. > — > Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with

‘bellfamily’)

Response:

> Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW > six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent > torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform.

Not only it is in the same league, but it betters all its specs in the same price range +/- 20%.  Some will prefer the BMW I6 and others will prefer the Acura V6 which has a terrific sound at 6000-7000rpm. > BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6. > Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the > same league.

It is only between the two ears of the believer.  Again, yesterday in the SCCA Touring, a mere RSX won the race SCCA Touring at Atlanta over a crowd of 325s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a > trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? > Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound. > LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, > cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only > 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L > Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata.

Oh no, you are dead wrong here; VW/Audi  4 cyl.  pre-Mk III had a very distinct sound for whoever really knows the brand. > Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their > place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European > competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. > Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face > of real experience. > — > Jonesy

So Eric has AGAIN a new identity; Jonesy.   Of course.

Response:

I gotto agree with the sound factor…6’s do sounds sweet. A great 4 not matching a good V6 though??? in terms of what, cause a chipped 1.8T will always outperform the 3.0L V6, with better fuel efficiency. It is all about what he is looking for. BMW uses flat 6’s to get great torque figures. It is like comparing the 2.7T to the 4.2L V8 in the S4. A chipped 2.7T will always outrun the V8 (by the way, the 2.7T stock is just as fast as the 4.2L V8 in the S4) …..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a > chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. > I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.  BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.   I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound.

Response:

> BMW uses flat 6’s ….

They do?  Porsche use flat sixes, BMW use In-line sixes. — Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with ‘bellfamily’)

Response:

> > Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW > six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent > torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform. > Not only it is in the same league, but it betters all its specs in the same > price range +/- 20%.

Specs???  As in "bench racing?" FWD will never be a real driver’s platform. I do believe that the Acura is the torque-steer leader in the cost category. >  Some will prefer the BMW I6 and others will prefer the > Acura V6 which has a terrific sound at 6000-7000rpm.

And some will actual prefer *driving* a well-balanced I4 turbo car that costs less than either of the other two, and can outperform the Acura on everything except bone-dry tarmac.  And you can’t hear it inside the cabin anyway! > > BMW understood it. The > > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6. > Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the > same league. > It is only between the two ears of the believer.  Again, yesterday in the > SCCA Touring, a mere RSX won the race SCCA Touring at Atlanta over a crowd > of 325s.

What does a race-prepped RSX have to do with a road-going TL?  Other than the manufacturer name on the trunklid? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I just don’t like the > > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a > trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? > Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then >  they > > were easy to recognize only by the sound. > LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, > cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only > 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L > Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata. > Oh no, you are dead wrong here; VW/Audi  4 cyl.  pre-Mk III had a very > distinct sound for whoever really knows the brand.

B.S. But you can claim it all you want – you haven’t a shred of proof to back up your silly claim. > Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their > place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European > competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. > Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face > of real experience. > — > Jonesy > So Eric has AGAIN a new identity; Jonesy.   Of course.

Jeez, you are terribly slow, aren’t you? — Robert F. Jones (duh, you silly moron)

Response:

> I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun.

I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.  BMW understood it. The driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.   I just don’t like the tin-can sound of the 1.8T. Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they were easy to recognize only by the sound.

Response:

>I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

Yes.  The Acura will cost less to run, but it may not be as much fun as the Audi.  What’s important to you?

Response:

> > I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a >  chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. > I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.

Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform. The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy. > BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.

Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the same league. > I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T.

LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound.

LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata. Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face of real experience. — Jonesy

Response:

> Great…..I thank all for their opinions. > What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 > model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with > Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? > I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher > that? > Thanks again!

The good news is that maintenance is free for the first four years/50000 miles. The bad news is that after that, it’s expensive. Brakes are great but don’t last that long especially under spirited driving and when the pads wear out you can pretty much count on replacing the rotors since they have little meat available to machine. Audi has never been a paragon of reliability and that’s not about to change. I’ve owned Audis for over 18 years so I’ve had some experience. My 98 A4 2.8 quattro has suffered from some of the common problems but also a couple of its own (clutch release bearing and climate control fan both under warranty). I’m about to do the timing belt and ancillary component replacement which typically runs well north of $1000 if the dealer does it. It’s also leaking oil. Fortunately, I haven’t suffered from the dreaded control arm problem which is likely a consequence of living in sunny and dry Arizona. Although I am not that familiar with the 1.8, people tell me that if you get the quattro on that car, you really won’t be thrilled with the performance unless you chip it and if you do that, your warranty may be problematic. Also, IMHO, there is not much point to getting a non-quattro Audi. Speaking of quattro, I love it and it has always been one of the more reliable components of the car. Actually, the major Audi components like the drive train are pretty bullet-proof and engines like the old 5 cylinder seem to last forever. The bits and pieces that break are smaller but quite costly items: anyone remember the infamous breaking door handles of the older Audis? Goodness, I’ll bet that if you went into a scrap yard that the door handles on 90% on non-Audis would still be functioning. Door handles are not rocket science. Then there’s the more recent embarrassment of the failing coil packs. It’s not like VW/Audi hasn’t had about a century to develop coil technology. Or maybe they buy them from Lucas. At any rate, this Audi will be my last for awhile and for my next car I will likely be returning to the rotary camp I left some 15 years ago. I suspect there are few stock A4’s or TT’s that could keep up to an RX-8. And it comes with about the same rear legroom as my A4.

Response:

I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a chipped 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. My $0.02

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you don’t have the extra $$$ to go with the V6, pass the A4 and get the > TL. > Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the > 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up > to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

Response:

I have to largly agree here. If the 3.0 A4 is out of your price range – and especially if you’re looking for an Auto rather than a stick – buy the TL. The Audi is more fun on Canyon roads IMO but the TL has the A4 beat on the price:performance ratio, and 270Hp is hard to argue with. Plus, chipping a 1.8T often means no warranty – I’m going trhough this with my Vw GTi 1.8T. Other than that, take a look at the G35 and Nissan’s Maxima (obviously FWD doesn’t bother you if the TL is a serious choice). OTOH, if it were my money and my purchase, I’d find a used 2001 S4 and snap it up. Even with the tip it’ll do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, has standard Quattro and is a BLAST to drive. A used 2.7T A6 isn’t a bad choice either.

Response:

If you don’t have the extra $$$ to go with the V6, pass the A4 and get the TL.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

Response:

Pumba, the following is a copy of my reply to the subjet on 16th april:- "Re: Hate, Envy and Angst: The Accord Owner belches about Audi A4: suspension damage after only 35K"  had a 2001 Honda accord EX-I4 manual for the past 2.5yrs – and then sold it in two seconds when I drove the 2001 A41.8Tq (with sports package) the other day!  What can I say – unbelievable, the torque, power and Quattro is amazing! I didn’t get nearly the same excitement for the A4 2.8q. (and one of my friends has a chipped 99 A41.8Tq – that put a bigger smile on my face let me tell you!!!)  I test drove the Acura TSX last summer (ps I’m from England and now living in Canada) and I was not impressed – For me personally there is no comparison.  Well I sold my accord last November, and I am still saving money to this day to put a big chunk down on the 2002 A41.8Tq. Yep I going for the new shape!  The 325 BMW just did not give me the big smile on my face that the A4 gave me – yes it’s all about smiles for me! yes the BMW was refined and silky smooth engine – but that A4 – throw that car round a corner at 80 km/h and.. and… oops sorry I seem to be smiling again. Anyway that’s just my opinion! Darren

Response:

Great…..I thank all for their opinions. What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher that? Thanks again!

Response:

The TL is indeed a very nice car, and would definitely win in a reliability contest. Don’t get me wrong, the reliability of the A4’s are good, but Honda/Acura (and Toyota ofcourse) are the bench marks here. 91mph.  Any good chipped A4 1.8T will also do that with around 210HP! I have never driven a TL, but drove a RSX-S.  The RSX is definitely the best handling Acura (besides the NSX). Although the RSX is very tight and a blast to drive, it does not come close to the fun I have in my chipped A4.  You simply cannot nail the accelerator pedal whenever you like as is the case with the all-wheel drive A4. If you want space and reliability, go TL. For fun, drivability, traction in all conditions, finesse, go for the A4. If you do decide on the A4, make sure it is a Quattro with the sport package( or ultra sport) Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

Response:

ppl do not buy audis for their reliability. they might be alot of things but reliable isnt one of them. not that their unreliable – just that they need alot of TLC – its not the kind of car u wanna use as a beater. the things that go wrong with it tend to be botherline necessary – suspension tends to be number 1 waste of money – but man what a suspension. i bought a 97 a41.8t a year ago and it drives better than most new american sedans u can get ure hands on. i wish i had the money to get a new turbo or have the torque on it fixed tho cus its absolute rubbish rite now. but ive got to replace the control arms and like clock work, the wheel bearings are shot as well. lucky me. the car is a sweet ride – when it works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Great…..I thank all for their opinions. > What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 > model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with > Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? > I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher > that? > Thanks again!

Response:

>Great…..I thank all for their opinions. >What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 >model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with >Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? >I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

You also get the 4 year bumper to bumper with Audi. The Japanese don’t get that part. They have good products but… I don’t know about the reliability > 4 yrs with the TL or TSX. It is probably good but then you are also getting less of a vehicle. And I got the Tiptronic, Sport, Lighting and Premium packages. I mean, geez, if you are going to spend all that money (and it is a ton more here in Canada when you add 15% tax) why go small? Driving the is a pleasure, in all conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thanks again!

Response:

> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).

If bang/buck is the standard, German cars probably aren’t the best choice.  The TL is still a FWD car from a company that makes mostly econoboxes, no matter how much leather and wood they put into the interior.  That’s not bad, it’s just reality. For a good idea about the niggles of Audi cars, do a Google groups search in this ng for a list. > I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL.

If reliability is the overall goal, stay with Acura/Honda.  As a former Honda owner, I might own another Honda as a beater to haul trash/groceries/dirty kids, but my A4 is my primary transport.  If interior room is important, then maybe an A4 Avant (wagon) would suit you better?  They drive very nicely, and look pretty good too. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that?

Consumer Reports is not a paragon for unbiased information, since the basis for their numbers are self-selected (unscientific) surveys.  But the truth is this – Honda has a well-deserved reputation for excellence in reliability.  Audi is not as good.  It’s a trade-off that many alt.autos.audi readers accept with relish. List your automotive goals in order.  If bang/buck and/or reliability come out on top, or very near the top, you should steer clear of German cars.  If all-weather performance, well-balanced handling, style and/or luxury are on top, then an A4 might suit your needs, if you accept that it might not be as reliable as your previous Hondas. If you ask the folks in the Honda newsgroup, the honest ones will tell you the same things I have. — Jonesy

Response:

>Great…..I thank all for their opinions. >What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 >model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with >Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? >I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

I have an ‘01 A4 purchased new; it is a V6 model with Quattro, sport package, etc. Prior to this vehicle, I was all Honda/Acura.  My wife just sold her 88 Camry to her sister; it now has 300,000+ miles on it!  Very trouble-free. As for my ‘01 A4, it has 40,000 miles on it and the only issue has been a wind noise problem on the drivers side door. As for maintenance costs, it depends how long you will keep it.  In the US, Audi covers ALL items (brakes, wiper blades, fluids) for the first 50,000 miles, so that is nice. But, I agree with other posters, if you are looking "long-term – i.e. 250,000 miles), not sure Audi will compete as well as Toyota/Honda without significant additional costs. YMMV. – — Curtis Newton http://surf.to/cnewton ICQ: 4899169 Anti-Spam filter in place–   <delete remove-this. to respond to email>

Response:

Hi all, I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to par with Acura……any truth to that? Thanks in advance!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi all, >I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 >Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test >drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little >steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura >TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k >more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more >standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to >their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I >would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the >much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. >PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to >par with Acura……any truth to that? >Thanks in advance!

I bought an A4 1.8 q five weeks ago. I love the car but I am also getting a new, free turbo in about two weeks. Seems the original had a bug. I test drove the TSX, Passat 4Motion and the G35X. None compare. The TL is close but the Japanese just miss the mark on fit and finish; compare the cabin in the A4 with the TL and the 4 will win. And 270 hp through the front wheels is too much. The TSX with 200 is too much; a great way to be pulled into the corners. And the Audi has quatto. And a bunch of other things that I found useful (split rear seats, ski sack) that the TL will never have. They have priced and packaged it very tightly but the answer really lies on the road. Drive them back to backon the same twisty road. More hp from the TL is maybe not the answer.

Response:

Question:

> >Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW >six in any case > I’d agree for the most part. But the 3.2 is still a good engine and the six in > the NSX is sweet.

I have not had the pleasure of driving the NSX.  And it might be a good engine, but for smoothness, it’s really hard to beat that I6 in a BMW. >Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent >torque steer > Audi (and to a degree, VW as well) seems to have more or less killed the torque > steer problem in their cars.

Good engineering solves problems. > However, Volvo’s S80 T6 and the Saabs I have > driven had it in abundance.

I drove a Viggen that just about tore the wheel out of my hands.  FWD + a lot of power = unfriendly driver. > The big problem I found with the TL was the "pogo" > ride on some roads. Audi’s FWD system is better here, although I’m not sure why > because the Accord and TL have double wishbones at all four corners and the old > TL Type S coupe had great handling.

Again, it’s engineering.  That pogo is just a soft suspension.  It’s a luxury wannabe, after all.  Ever ridden in a Buick?  That Dynaride system is enough to give you motion sickness. >The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the >car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy. > Audi should’ve stuck with a turbo-5. But I’ve seen six-speed 3.0 Quattros dip > as low as 6.5 seconds in 0-60 tests though.

That big motor still has negative effects on chassis dynamics.  Even though the 3.0 is faster in a line, the 1.8T feels more nimble, and better balanced.  I am almost sure that raw mass has everything to do with that. >Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the >same league. > As far as what’s avaliable right now, I’ll agree for the most part. But I’ve > seen tuned SVT Focus and Type R Integra leave 6-cylinder RWD cars (Bimmers > included) in the dust on twisty mountain passes.

I would suggest the difference is the driver.  But a car with less mass can usually do pretty good things.  The type R has a very favorable mass/weight in comparison to just about any BMW.  A good driver could be quite competetive, I think. >LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a >trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? >Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Get a Gti VR6 or an R32. The VR6 sounds sweet and they’re quick.

I’ve driven the Jetta with the VR6, and it is quite nice, but it’s still a front-drive car, and tuned for understeer.  I have not had the pleasure of an R32, nor will I (probably.)  But listen to an Alfa 2.5 for sweet V6 music.  Or an M3 for I6 song.  Heck, even the Porsche V8 or the 3.0 I4 in the 944 sound a heck of a lot better than just about any VAG product.  From the outside, at least.  From the inside, well, an air-cooled flat-6 is just about the best music that real people can afford. (A 308 makes some nice noises, but you have to be able to print your own money if you want the sweet sound to not turn sour in a hurry, LOL.)  Most luxury cars don’t give you much appreciation for what’s happening under the hood, and Japanese cars are really good at insulating the cabin occupants from mechanical noise.  In the Accord I used to own, I’d have to look at the tach to see if the damn thing was running. — Jonesy

Response:

> I prefer to call you Eric;

That’s why I call you a moron.  I’ve given you my nearly-full name (my middle name can be had from a Google search) and you still persist in being dumb.  If it’s not because you’re a moron, then what could be the answer? > I am too ashamed, having to share my first name > with a frustrated retard like you.

And you’re complaining about gratuitous insults?  I love irony… >  This thread is just another evidence; > what started as a normal thread finishes AGAIN with gratuitous insults from > your part.

A normal thread in which you bash Audi (again.)  Yeah, I can see how that might be the case in your fantasy world.  I’m sure a Google groups search in this ng will find some instance in which you recommend an Audi over some Honda product.  I’d take bets against that.  Any thread in which you participate is by definition abnormal. See above about how my insults are spot-on, and not gratuitous in the least. >  End here.

That would be great advice for you to take.  I will just have to keep pointing out your trollish nature, and that your Audi "advice" has no credibility. — Jonesy

Response:

I prefer to call you Eric; I am too ashamed, having to share my first name with a frustrated retard like you.  This thread is just another evidence; what started as a normal thread finishes AGAIN with gratuitous insults from your part.  End here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jeez, you are terribly slow, aren’t you? > — > Robert F. Jones (duh, you silly moron)

Response:

>Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW >six in any case

I’d agree for the most part. But the 3.2 is still a good engine and the six in the NSX is sweet. >Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent >torque steer

Audi (and to a degree, VW as well) seems to have more or less killed the torque steer problem in their cars. However, Volvo’s S80 T6 and the Saabs I have driven had it in abundance. The big problem I found with the TL was the "pogo" ride on some roads. Audi’s FWD system is better here, although I’m not sure why because the Accord and TL have double wishbones at all four corners and the old TL Type S coupe had great handling. >The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the >car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy.

Audi should’ve stuck with a turbo-5. But I’ve seen six-speed 3.0 Quattros dip as low as 6.5 seconds in 0-60 tests though. >Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the >same league.

As far as what’s avaliable right now, I’ll agree for the most part. But I’ve seen tuned SVT Focus and Type R Integra leave 6-cylinder RWD cars (Bimmers included) in the dust on twisty mountain passes. >LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a >trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? >Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL.

Get a Gti VR6 or an R32. The VR6 sounds sweet and they’re quick.

Response:

Yes! that i what I mean.  Thanks for clearing that up.

> BMW uses flat 6’s …. > They do?  Porsche use flat sixes, BMW use In-line sixes. > — > Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with

‘bellfamily’)

Response:

> Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW > six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent > torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform.

Not only it is in the same league, but it betters all its specs in the same price range +/- 20%.  Some will prefer the BMW I6 and others will prefer the Acura V6 which has a terrific sound at 6000-7000rpm. > BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6. > Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the > same league.

It is only between the two ears of the believer.  Again, yesterday in the SCCA Touring, a mere RSX won the race SCCA Touring at Atlanta over a crowd of 325s. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a > trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? > Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound. > LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, > cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only > 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L > Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata.

Oh no, you are dead wrong here; VW/Audi  4 cyl.  pre-Mk III had a very distinct sound for whoever really knows the brand. > Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their > place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European > competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. > Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face > of real experience. > — > Jonesy

So Eric has AGAIN a new identity; Jonesy.   Of course.

Response:

I gotto agree with the sound factor…6’s do sounds sweet. A great 4 not matching a good V6 though??? in terms of what, cause a chipped 1.8T will always outperform the 3.0L V6, with better fuel efficiency. It is all about what he is looking for. BMW uses flat 6’s to get great torque figures. It is like comparing the 2.7T to the 4.2L V8 in the S4. A chipped 2.7T will always outrun the V8 (by the way, the 2.7T stock is just as fast as the 4.2L V8 in the S4) …..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a > chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. > I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.  BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.   I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound.

Response:

> BMW uses flat 6’s ….

They do?  Porsche use flat sixes, BMW use In-line sixes. — Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with ‘bellfamily’)

Response:

> > Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW > six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent > torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform. > Not only it is in the same league, but it betters all its specs in the same > price range +/- 20%.

Specs???  As in "bench racing?" FWD will never be a real driver’s platform. I do believe that the Acura is the torque-steer leader in the cost category. >  Some will prefer the BMW I6 and others will prefer the > Acura V6 which has a terrific sound at 6000-7000rpm.

And some will actual prefer *driving* a well-balanced I4 turbo car that costs less than either of the other two, and can outperform the Acura on everything except bone-dry tarmac.  And you can’t hear it inside the cabin anyway! > > BMW understood it. The > > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6. > Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the > same league. > It is only between the two ears of the believer.  Again, yesterday in the > SCCA Touring, a mere RSX won the race SCCA Touring at Atlanta over a crowd > of 325s.

What does a race-prepped RSX have to do with a road-going TL?  Other than the manufacturer name on the trunklid? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I just don’t like the > > tin-can sound of the 1.8T. > LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a > trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? > Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then >  they > > were easy to recognize only by the sound. > LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, > cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only > 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L > Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata. > Oh no, you are dead wrong here; VW/Audi  4 cyl.  pre-Mk III had a very > distinct sound for whoever really knows the brand.

B.S. But you can claim it all you want – you haven’t a shred of proof to back up your silly claim. > Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their > place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European > competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. > Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face > of real experience. > — > Jonesy > So Eric has AGAIN a new identity; Jonesy.   Of course.

Jeez, you are terribly slow, aren’t you? — Robert F. Jones (duh, you silly moron)

Response:

> I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun.

I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.  BMW understood it. The driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.   I just don’t like the tin-can sound of the 1.8T. Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they were easy to recognize only by the sound.

Response:

>I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

Yes.  The Acura will cost less to run, but it may not be as much fun as the Audi.  What’s important to you?

Response:

> > I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a >  chipped > 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and > acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. > I don’t agree.  Even a great 4 can’t match a good 6.

Merely your opinion.  The Acura six is not in a league with the BMW six in any case.  Add to that the cheesy FWD layout and it’s inherent torque steer, and you have a poor driver’s platform. The reduction in weight from running a turbo four in the A4 makes the car more balanced.  The 3.0 is nice, but it’s heavy. > BMW understood it. The > driving experience is much more enhanced with a 6.

Not just any six, but an I6.  And RWD.  A V6 and FWD aren’t in the same league. > I just don’t like the > tin-can sound of the 1.8T.

LOL.  From inside, you can’t tell the difference in sound.  Not even a trained musician can tell the difference.  From outside, who cares? Tin can?  Fart can mufflers are much more likely on an Acura, LOL. > Too bad that VW/Audi 4 cyl. lost their velvety sound of the ’80s.  Then they > were easy to recognize only by the sound.

LOL.  What velvety sound?  They sounded like underpowered 4-cyl, cast-iron block, Al-head motors, just like all the others.  The only 4-cyl car that had any sort of sound recognition was maybe the 2.0L Alfa.  Or the Mazda Miata. Fawning over Honda products doesn’t make them great.  They have their place, and that’s in the rear-view mirror of almost any European competitor.  But hey, they *are* reliable, which means something. Saying that they are some sort of driving machinery flies in the face of real experience. — Jonesy

Response:

> Great…..I thank all for their opinions. > What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 > model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with > Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? > I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher > that? > Thanks again!

The good news is that maintenance is free for the first four years/50000 miles. The bad news is that after that, it’s expensive. Brakes are great but don’t last that long especially under spirited driving and when the pads wear out you can pretty much count on replacing the rotors since they have little meat available to machine. Audi has never been a paragon of reliability and that’s not about to change. I’ve owned Audis for over 18 years so I’ve had some experience. My 98 A4 2.8 quattro has suffered from some of the common problems but also a couple of its own (clutch release bearing and climate control fan both under warranty). I’m about to do the timing belt and ancillary component replacement which typically runs well north of $1000 if the dealer does it. It’s also leaking oil. Fortunately, I haven’t suffered from the dreaded control arm problem which is likely a consequence of living in sunny and dry Arizona. Although I am not that familiar with the 1.8, people tell me that if you get the quattro on that car, you really won’t be thrilled with the performance unless you chip it and if you do that, your warranty may be problematic. Also, IMHO, there is not much point to getting a non-quattro Audi. Speaking of quattro, I love it and it has always been one of the more reliable components of the car. Actually, the major Audi components like the drive train are pretty bullet-proof and engines like the old 5 cylinder seem to last forever. The bits and pieces that break are smaller but quite costly items: anyone remember the infamous breaking door handles of the older Audis? Goodness, I’ll bet that if you went into a scrap yard that the door handles on 90% on non-Audis would still be functioning. Door handles are not rocket science. Then there’s the more recent embarrassment of the failing coil packs. It’s not like VW/Audi hasn’t had about a century to develop coil technology. Or maybe they buy them from Lucas. At any rate, this Audi will be my last for awhile and for my next car I will likely be returning to the rotary camp I left some 15 years ago. I suspect there are few stock A4’s or TT’s that could keep up to an RX-8. And it comes with about the same rear legroom as my A4.

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I can honostly say that if he does buy the A4 for the fun factor, a chipped 1.8T will be a far better choice.  Better response in handling and acceleration. Granted not as smooth as the V6 , but definately more fun. My $0.02

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you don’t have the extra $$$ to go with the V6, pass the A4 and get the > TL. > Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the > 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up > to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

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I have to largly agree here. If the 3.0 A4 is out of your price range – and especially if you’re looking for an Auto rather than a stick – buy the TL. The Audi is more fun on Canyon roads IMO but the TL has the A4 beat on the price:performance ratio, and 270Hp is hard to argue with. Plus, chipping a 1.8T often means no warranty – I’m going trhough this with my Vw GTi 1.8T. Other than that, take a look at the G35 and Nissan’s Maxima (obviously FWD doesn’t bother you if the TL is a serious choice). OTOH, if it were my money and my purchase, I’d find a used 2001 S4 and snap it up. Even with the tip it’ll do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, has standard Quattro and is a BLAST to drive. A used 2.7T A6 isn’t a bad choice either.

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If you don’t have the extra $$$ to go with the V6, pass the A4 and get the TL.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

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Pumba, the following is a copy of my reply to the subjet on 16th april:- "Re: Hate, Envy and Angst: The Accord Owner belches about Audi A4: suspension damage after only 35K"  had a 2001 Honda accord EX-I4 manual for the past 2.5yrs – and then sold it in two seconds when I drove the 2001 A41.8Tq (with sports package) the other day!  What can I say – unbelievable, the torque, power and Quattro is amazing! I didn’t get nearly the same excitement for the A4 2.8q. (and one of my friends has a chipped 99 A41.8Tq – that put a bigger smile on my face let me tell you!!!)  I test drove the Acura TSX last summer (ps I’m from England and now living in Canada) and I was not impressed – For me personally there is no comparison.  Well I sold my accord last November, and I am still saving money to this day to put a big chunk down on the 2002 A41.8Tq. Yep I going for the new shape!  The 325 BMW just did not give me the big smile on my face that the A4 gave me – yes it’s all about smiles for me! yes the BMW was refined and silky smooth engine – but that A4 – throw that car round a corner at 80 km/h and.. and… oops sorry I seem to be smiling again. Anyway that’s just my opinion! Darren

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Great…..I thank all for their opinions. What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher that? Thanks again!

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The TL is indeed a very nice car, and would definitely win in a reliability contest. Don’t get me wrong, the reliability of the A4’s are good, but Honda/Acura (and Toyota ofcourse) are the bench marks here. 91mph.  Any good chipped A4 1.8T will also do that with around 210HP! I have never driven a TL, but drove a RSX-S.  The RSX is definitely the best handling Acura (besides the NSX). Although the RSX is very tight and a blast to drive, it does not come close to the fun I have in my chipped A4.  You simply cannot nail the accelerator pedal whenever you like as is the case with the all-wheel drive A4. If you want space and reliability, go TL. For fun, drivability, traction in all conditions, finesse, go for the A4. If you do decide on the A4, make sure it is a Quattro with the sport package( or ultra sport) Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that? > Thanks in advance!

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ppl do not buy audis for their reliability. they might be alot of things but reliable isnt one of them. not that their unreliable – just that they need alot of TLC – its not the kind of car u wanna use as a beater. the things that go wrong with it tend to be botherline necessary – suspension tends to be number 1 waste of money – but man what a suspension. i bought a 97 a41.8t a year ago and it drives better than most new american sedans u can get ure hands on. i wish i had the money to get a new turbo or have the torque on it fixed tho cus its absolute rubbish rite now. but ive got to replace the control arms and like clock work, the wheel bearings are shot as well. lucky me. the car is a sweet ride – when it works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Great…..I thank all for their opinions. > What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 > model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with > Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? > I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher > that? > Thanks again!

Response:

>Great…..I thank all for their opinions. >What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 >model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with >Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? >I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

You also get the 4 year bumper to bumper with Audi. The Japanese don’t get that part. They have good products but… I don’t know about the reliability > 4 yrs with the TL or TSX. It is probably good but then you are also getting less of a vehicle. And I got the Tiptronic, Sport, Lighting and Premium packages. I mean, geez, if you are going to spend all that money (and it is a ton more here in Canada when you add 15% tax) why go small? Driving the is a pleasure, in all conditions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thanks again!

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> Hi all, > I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 > Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test > drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little > steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura > TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k > more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more > standard features etc).

If bang/buck is the standard, German cars probably aren’t the best choice.  The TL is still a FWD car from a company that makes mostly econoboxes, no matter how much leather and wood they put into the interior.  That’s not bad, it’s just reality. For a good idea about the niggles of Audi cars, do a Google groups search in this ng for a list. > I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to > their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I > would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the > much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL.

If reliability is the overall goal, stay with Acura/Honda.  As a former Honda owner, I might own another Honda as a beater to haul trash/groceries/dirty kids, but my A4 is my primary transport.  If interior room is important, then maybe an A4 Avant (wagon) would suit you better?  They drive very nicely, and look pretty good too. > PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to > par with Acura……any truth to that?

Consumer Reports is not a paragon for unbiased information, since the basis for their numbers are self-selected (unscientific) surveys.  But the truth is this – Honda has a well-deserved reputation for excellence in reliability.  Audi is not as good.  It’s a trade-off that many alt.autos.audi readers accept with relish. List your automotive goals in order.  If bang/buck and/or reliability come out on top, or very near the top, you should steer clear of German cars.  If all-weather performance, well-balanced handling, style and/or luxury are on top, then an A4 might suit your needs, if you accept that it might not be as reliable as your previous Hondas. If you ask the folks in the Honda newsgroup, the honest ones will tell you the same things I have. — Jonesy

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>Great…..I thank all for their opinions. >What about the reliability of the 2004 Audi A4 1.8T?  For the 2003 >model…..consumer reports suggest its reliability is not up to par with >Acura.  All those die hard long time Audi owners want to shed some light? >I have been told that the maintenance costs for the Audi are much higher >that?

I have an ‘01 A4 purchased new; it is a V6 model with Quattro, sport package, etc. Prior to this vehicle, I was all Honda/Acura.  My wife just sold her 88 Camry to her sister; it now has 300,000+ miles on it!  Very trouble-free. As for my ‘01 A4, it has 40,000 miles on it and the only issue has been a wind noise problem on the drivers side door. As for maintenance costs, it depends how long you will keep it.  In the US, Audi covers ALL items (brakes, wiper blades, fluids) for the first 50,000 miles, so that is nice. But, I agree with other posters, if you are looking "long-term – i.e. 250,000 miles), not sure Audi will compete as well as Toyota/Honda without significant additional costs. YMMV. – — Curtis Newton http://surf.to/cnewton ICQ: 4899169 Anti-Spam filter in place–   <delete remove-this. to respond to email>

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Hi all, I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to par with Acura……any truth to that? Thanks in advance!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi all, >I am in the market for a new car.  I would like opinions regarding the 2003 >Audi 1.8T Quatro model.  Any concerns/gripes/frustrations etc…….I test >drove the car and it felt really "good".  However the price is a little >steep close to US $30k.  A friend of mine also has the new 2004 Acura >TL….and it looks really "sharp" and for a little extra (just like $2k >more) you get way more bang for your buck (bigger car, bigger engine, more >standard features etc).  I currently own a Honda and so am a witness to >their reliability.  However, I have no experiece with German cars.  So I >would like opinions on whether previous Audi owners would still go for the >much smaller Audi 1.8T rather than the abundant Acura TL. >PS – Auto consumer reports also show that the Audi reliability is not up to >par with Acura……any truth to that? >Thanks in advance!

I bought an A4 1.8 q five weeks ago. I love the car but I am also getting a new, free turbo in about two weeks. Seems the original had a bug. I test drove the TSX, Passat 4Motion and the G35X. None compare. The TL is close but the Japanese just miss the mark on fit and finish; compare the cabin in the A4 with the TL and the 4 will win. And 270 hp through the front wheels is too much. The TSX with 200 is too much; a great way to be pulled into the corners. And the Audi has quatto. And a bunch of other things that I found useful (split rear seats, ski sack) that the TL will never have. They have priced and packaged it very tightly but the answer really lies on the road. Drive them back to backon the same twisty road. More hp from the TL is maybe not the answer.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more > or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they > are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste > and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, > while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and > foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. > Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to > drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost > non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and > is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Very well sumed up Ron

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I don’t think that it is only at Audi.  I went for a test drive last year at 2 local dealerships in Montreal area.   One was very good (Lauzon) and the other (AutoStrasse) was pathetic.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

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From my experience, the best dealership in Montreal is definitely Park Avenue in Brossard. Tommy is a good salesman and Danyk has the highest customer satisfaction ratings in Quebec. Service is excellent. — Alexandre 2001 Audi A4 2.8QM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think that it is only at Audi.  I went for a test drive last year at > 2 local dealerships in Montreal area.   One was very good (Lauzon) and the > other (AutoStrasse) was pathetic. > I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers > to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car > but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They > were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is > this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the > higher > price tag than comparable MB?

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http://www.mulazzo.nl  Ons huis in Toscane / Our house in Tuscany. http://www.netspresso.com  The espresso Infosite.

> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Can’t you get the message they’re sending you: stay with MB! Ron — Outgoing mail is AVG certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Not my experience.  I went into an Audi dealership, just to check out the TT, and the same dealer is a Porsche dealer, so I was looking at the New Carreras. The sales man did a wonderful job of opening my eyes up to the Performance line of Audi.  I had no idea, but the salesman I dealt with was really into the cars.  In the end I purchased an S4, and am very pleased. And I also own a MB, which my wife now drives.  I thought the MB people were more arrogant. I like driving the Audi, because not that many people really know what these cars are.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

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The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p (Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? Regards, Jules PS. I can so foresee my next car to be the new TT or the new A6.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox > Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over > the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p > (Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any > Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just > replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of > course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also > after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any > executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? > Regards, Jules > PS. I can so foresee my next car to be the new TT or the new A6.

Likewise, at Simpsons Audi at Lowestoft (UK).  I moved to Audi from MB over 11 years ago (previously had 7 BMWs) ‘cos I preferred the cars. — Doug Ramage ***Watch Spam Trap***

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> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

Not in my experience.  I test drove an A6 last year, and everyone was very nice and friendly.  Even after I decided I *didn’t* want the car (it’s a fabulous car, but as stupid as it may sound, the center console is too wide and the gas pedal too close to it for my right leg to be comfortable – I ended up getting a Passat instead) I ended up talking to the salesman for probably 20 minutes – no pressure, just shooting the breeze about this & that.  Maybe it’s the state of the market or something, but last November I hit a bunch of dealerships and most of the people I dealt with (Audi, Infiniti, Acura, VW) were very nice and helpful.  The one place I put up with a little arrogance was a Honda dealership, of all places.  (The ‘03 Accord had just come out, and the dealer was saying stuff like "I sold 30 cars this week" as if to say "I’m not going to be talked down", so I just left – who wants to drive a household appliance anyway?  ;-) — Mike Smith

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> I like driving the Audi, because not that many people really know what these > cars are.

Really?  Around here, you can’t throw a rock without hitting an A4 or A6.  (Not that I’m recommending the throwing of rocks at Audis…) — Mike Smith

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>I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

Hmmm…here is NE Ohio, Fred Baker is the best dealer IMO.  I always have a pleasant experience with the salesmen and service guys.  They are pretty good fellas. Of course, Cascade Imports in Cuyahoga Falls is an entirely different matter.  The owner is a real piece of work, and I’ll never set foot in there again.  Rotten, rude and dishonest.  If my car were to die in front of the dealership, I’d push it another 30 miles to Fred Baker. Elroy 2000 S4 – Bought at Fred Baker…after the A4…

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Wow RS6… well even here in ugly old Nottingham I went to an Audi dealer in bright red t-shirt sneakers and worn jeans with my hair dyed blonde and out of bed looks (I know… I had bad taste). I asked about the approved used cars and had a test drive as well, the salesperson was ever so helpful and even said things like best thing is to try out a few more before you finally decide what to go for, an A4 or an A6, as I wasn’t sure which I preferred more. So yup I test drove a few, both A4 and A6 and a few different engines. Didn’t buy one on the day cos’ I had another offer from a friend who was selling his A4 later that afternoon. But I did take the A4 back to them for servicing every year and I had always been going in tasteless clothes and hair and they had always been giving me very nice A4/A6 as courtesy cars and last year they even gave me a 1.9TDI new A4! And they were always polite, I couldn’t recommend them any more as they were really professional. And this year I bought a 1.8T Quattro Sport from them, in t-shirt and jeans again but no more blonde hair I’m just saying here that the Audi dealer here in Notts are pro, and please don’t slack me off for ruining Audi’s image by dressing in tasteless clothes and having weird hair cos’ when I drive I dress nicely, cos’ it’s a respect I show to my most beloved cars. Cheers, Jules — ***24 hours in a day…24 beers in a case…coincidence?***

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen? > Not a problem here in the UK.  At the end of January I telephoned an > Audi dealer to say make tentative enquiries about the RS6.  That evening > the salesman personally delivered the hard-bound sales brochure to my > front door.  Although they didn’t have a demonstrator available, an > arrangement was made for me to test drive the Managing Director’s own > car a few days later (even the salesman hadn’t driven it).  The result > was that I placed an order immediately on completion of that drive. > — > Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with

‘bellfamily’)

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[snipped] > If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi >Just like an Audi is an upgraded VW?!?

<sniff> We veddy much prefer to think of VW as a downgraded Audi. Now please be a good parking lot attendent and park this in your best space… /daytripper ‘00 Veedoub – whoops – Audi S4 6spd

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers > to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car > but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They > were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is > this > typical of Audi salesmen? > No problem here where I live. All our local Audi salespersons are quite > eager to sell, and are polite and highly competent. I cannot visit our local > Audi dealership without being tempted to buy me another one, maybe the brand > new and exciting A3. >   Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB? > Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more > or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they > are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste > and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, > while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and > foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. > Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to > drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost > non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and > is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Just like an Audi is an upgraded VW?!?

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>I usually call the dealership to make an appointment a few days >earlier. … >ability to purchase. All of this is more important if you look young, >female, or there’s anything else about your superficial appearance >that might cause dealership staff to not treat you with the respect >that you deserve.

Obviously a different town than Seattle. Never had any problems here, and I don’t look traditionally professional. Of course in this town you never know who has the money, so that may contribute. Scott

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Yep… they are.  Was looking at a 2001 Audi Wagon.  Never once did they ask if I wanted a test drive.  Own an A6.  The salesman (no women in this NJ dealership) was helping someone else and just asked while in the lot if we needed help.  When we said yes, he reluctantly got us keys.  Didn’t get the car from him but a few days later with another salesperson. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox >Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over >the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p >(Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any >Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just >replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of >course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also >after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any >executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? >Both Commonwealth Audi in Santa Ana, CA and Newport Beach Audi in >Newport Beach, CA have been very professional as well.  Matter of fact I >find their honesty quite refreshing.  I may not like how I have to wait >for weeks on end to schedule service on my cars but at least they are >honest about not being able to do anything until a open date can be >schedule…. >– >Taylor >’89 Audi 200 >’03 Audi S6 Avant >’98 Jeep Cherokee Sport

Response:

> Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

Not a problem here in the UK.  At the end of January I telephoned an Audi dealer to say make tentative enquiries about the RS6.  That evening the salesman personally delivered the hard-bound sales brochure to my front door.  Although they didn’t have a demonstrator available, an arrangement was made for me to test drive the Managing Director’s own car a few days later (even the salesman hadn’t driven it).  The result was that I placed an order immediately on completion of that drive. — Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with ‘bellfamily’)

Response:

I’ve bought 3 new cars and never received any real arrogance or bad treatment while shopping anywhere, except way back when I was really young & didn’t know how to shop (and they could tell I was borderline on being able to buy, just by looking at me… ) Not even the above should ever happen! And your undertstanding is misplaced here. No one should know how to shop and no salesman could ever estimate the customer by looks. It happened to me in say 1975 when shopping at variuos BMW dealers. I was dressed poorly -which I always do when free- and one salesman said ‘they’re expensive cars you know!’ I just walked out and never bought a BMW. I did buy 14 Audi cars afterwards. — Ronald — Outgoing mail is AVG certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> Matter of fact I find their honesty quite refreshing.

Definitely, they never lie, and they always tell me where to get the best deal in parts, rather than conning me into paying dealer prices for parts you can get at trade prices easily elsewhere. I’d however prefer to pay them labour costs for the quality and professionalism, and of course honesty and good will in the first place. Jules

Response:

<snip> > helpful.  The one place I put up with a little arrogance was a Honda > dealership, of all places.  (The ‘03 Accord had just come out, and the > dealer was saying stuff like "I sold 30 cars this week" as if to say > "I’m not going to be talked down", so I just left – who wants to drive a > household appliance anyway?  ;-)

I’ve bought 3 new cars and never received any real arrogance or bad treatment while shopping anywhere, except way back when I was really young & didn’t know how to shop (and they could tell I was borderline on being able to buy, just by looking at me… ) Negherbon Audi in Oakland, Calif., where I bought my A4 a while ago, was super professional and respectful from start to finish. Same with the VW dealer where I bought my Passat 5 years previous to that. I usually call the dealership to make an appointment a few days earlier. While at the dealership, I act like a professional businessperson who’s done this before. Look them in the eye, shake hands, look totally relaxed and at home in the dealership, etc. I make it clear whether I’m a today buyer or not to avoid confusion, look confident and organized, speak clearly, and don’t argue or make a bunch of useless provocative comments about the brands they sell. I qualify myself for them early on, telling them about new cars I’ve bought before at nearby dealerships, mentioning how long I’ve been at my job and a little about what I do, so that they don’t doubt my ability to purchase. All of this is more important if you look young, female, or there’s anything else about your superficial appearance that might cause dealership staff to not treat you with the respect that you deserve. With the above, I’ve found that I get treated well, and also that I get to the desired deal a lot faster and with less BS when it comes time to negotiate a purchase. Of course, great care is still necessary to research pricing and avoid falling for tricks or otherwise leaving too much $ on the table when closing a deal, but it’s easier if things start out on the right foot. Needless to say, if I was ever treated badly despite all of the above, I’d just leave and make another appointment at a competing dealership.

Response:

> who wants to drive a > household appliance anyway?  ;-)

Lol, absolutely Mike. But then "isn’t it nice when it simply… works?" Ha ha! You have to admit though, it’s definitely better than Matsui or Philips. Jules

Response:

> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

No problem here where I live. All our local Audi salespersons are quite eager to sell, and are polite and highly competent. I cannot visit our local Audi dealership without being tempted to buy me another one, maybe the brand new and exciting A3.   Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Response:

> Curly writes: >I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB? > My experience (4 different Audis, three different salesmen) is that the cars > sell themselves.  I’ve never seen arrogance or patronization,  YMMV, however. > Dave

Russ Stansky at O’Daniel Porsche/Audi in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, has been courteous and professional throughout all my dealings with him. Regards, Jim

Response:

I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher price tag than comparable MB?

Response:

>I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

[.../..] Troll-o-meter

Response:

Curly writes: >I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

My experience (4 different Audis, three different salesmen) is that the cars sell themselves.  I’ve never seen arrogance or patronization,  YMMV, however. Dave http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more > or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they > are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste > and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, > while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and > foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. > Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to > drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost > non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and > is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Very well sumed up Ron

Response:

I don’t think that it is only at Audi.  I went for a test drive last year at 2 local dealerships in Montreal area.   One was very good (Lauzon) and the other (AutoStrasse) was pathetic.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Response:

From my experience, the best dealership in Montreal is definitely Park Avenue in Brossard. Tommy is a good salesman and Danyk has the highest customer satisfaction ratings in Quebec. Service is excellent. — Alexandre 2001 Audi A4 2.8QM

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t think that it is only at Audi.  I went for a test drive last year at > 2 local dealerships in Montreal area.   One was very good (Lauzon) and the > other (AutoStrasse) was pathetic. > I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers > to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car > but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They > were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is > this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the > higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Response:

http://www.mulazzo.nl  Ons huis in Toscane / Our house in Tuscany. http://www.netspresso.com  The espresso Infosite.

> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Can’t you get the message they’re sending you: stay with MB! Ron — Outgoing mail is AVG certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Not my experience.  I went into an Audi dealership, just to check out the TT, and the same dealer is a Porsche dealer, so I was looking at the New Carreras. The sales man did a wonderful job of opening my eyes up to the Performance line of Audi.  I had no idea, but the salesman I dealt with was really into the cars.  In the end I purchased an S4, and am very pleased. And I also own a MB, which my wife now drives.  I thought the MB people were more arrogant. I like driving the Audi, because not that many people really know what these cars are.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Response:

The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p (Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? Regards, Jules PS. I can so foresee my next car to be the new TT or the new A6.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox > Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over > the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p > (Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any > Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just > replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of > course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also > after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any > executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? > Regards, Jules > PS. I can so foresee my next car to be the new TT or the new A6.

Likewise, at Simpsons Audi at Lowestoft (UK).  I moved to Audi from MB over 11 years ago (previously had 7 BMWs) ‘cos I preferred the cars. — Doug Ramage ***Watch Spam Trap***

Response:

> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

Not in my experience.  I test drove an A6 last year, and everyone was very nice and friendly.  Even after I decided I *didn’t* want the car (it’s a fabulous car, but as stupid as it may sound, the center console is too wide and the gas pedal too close to it for my right leg to be comfortable – I ended up getting a Passat instead) I ended up talking to the salesman for probably 20 minutes – no pressure, just shooting the breeze about this & that.  Maybe it’s the state of the market or something, but last November I hit a bunch of dealerships and most of the people I dealt with (Audi, Infiniti, Acura, VW) were very nice and helpful.  The one place I put up with a little arrogance was a Honda dealership, of all places.  (The ‘03 Accord had just come out, and the dealer was saying stuff like "I sold 30 cars this week" as if to say "I’m not going to be talked down", so I just left – who wants to drive a household appliance anyway?  ;-) — Mike Smith

Response:

> I like driving the Audi, because not that many people really know what these > cars are.

Really?  Around here, you can’t throw a rock without hitting an A4 or A6.  (Not that I’m recommending the throwing of rocks at Audis…) — Mike Smith

Response:

>I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

Hmmm…here is NE Ohio, Fred Baker is the best dealer IMO.  I always have a pleasant experience with the salesmen and service guys.  They are pretty good fellas. Of course, Cascade Imports in Cuyahoga Falls is an entirely different matter.  The owner is a real piece of work, and I’ll never set foot in there again.  Rotten, rude and dishonest.  If my car were to die in front of the dealership, I’d push it another 30 miles to Fred Baker. Elroy 2000 S4 – Bought at Fred Baker…after the A4…

Response:

Wow RS6… well even here in ugly old Nottingham I went to an Audi dealer in bright red t-shirt sneakers and worn jeans with my hair dyed blonde and out of bed looks (I know… I had bad taste). I asked about the approved used cars and had a test drive as well, the salesperson was ever so helpful and even said things like best thing is to try out a few more before you finally decide what to go for, an A4 or an A6, as I wasn’t sure which I preferred more. So yup I test drove a few, both A4 and A6 and a few different engines. Didn’t buy one on the day cos’ I had another offer from a friend who was selling his A4 later that afternoon. But I did take the A4 back to them for servicing every year and I had always been going in tasteless clothes and hair and they had always been giving me very nice A4/A6 as courtesy cars and last year they even gave me a 1.9TDI new A4! And they were always polite, I couldn’t recommend them any more as they were really professional. And this year I bought a 1.8T Quattro Sport from them, in t-shirt and jeans again but no more blonde hair I’m just saying here that the Audi dealer here in Notts are pro, and please don’t slack me off for ruining Audi’s image by dressing in tasteless clothes and having weird hair cos’ when I drive I dress nicely, cos’ it’s a respect I show to my most beloved cars. Cheers, Jules — ***24 hours in a day…24 beers in a case…coincidence?***

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen? > Not a problem here in the UK.  At the end of January I telephoned an > Audi dealer to say make tentative enquiries about the RS6.  That evening > the salesman personally delivered the hard-bound sales brochure to my > front door.  Although they didn’t have a demonstrator available, an > arrangement was made for me to test drive the Managing Director’s own > car a few days later (even the salesman hadn’t driven it).  The result > was that I placed an order immediately on completion of that drive. > — > Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with

‘bellfamily’)

Response:

[snipped] > If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi >Just like an Audi is an upgraded VW?!?

<sniff> We veddy much prefer to think of VW as a downgraded Audi. Now please be a good parking lot attendent and park this in your best space… /daytripper ‘00 Veedoub – whoops – Audi S4 6spd

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers > to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car > but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They > were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is > this > typical of Audi salesmen? > No problem here where I live. All our local Audi salespersons are quite > eager to sell, and are polite and highly competent. I cannot visit our local > Audi dealership without being tempted to buy me another one, maybe the brand > new and exciting A3. >   Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB? > Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more > or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they > are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste > and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, > while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and > foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. > Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to > drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost > non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and > is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just > as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Just like an Audi is an upgraded VW?!?

Response:

>I usually call the dealership to make an appointment a few days >earlier. … >ability to purchase. All of this is more important if you look young, >female, or there’s anything else about your superficial appearance >that might cause dealership staff to not treat you with the respect >that you deserve.

Obviously a different town than Seattle. Never had any problems here, and I don’t look traditionally professional. Of course in this town you never know who has the money, so that may contribute. Scott

Response:

Yep… they are.  Was looking at a 2001 Audi Wagon.  Never once did they ask if I wanted a test drive.  Own an A6.  The salesman (no women in this NJ dealership) was helping someone else and just asked while in the lot if we needed help.  When we said yes, he reluctantly got us keys.  Didn’t get the car from him but a few days later with another salesperson. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Audi representatives at parts/service/reception departments at John Fox >Audi have all been very polite, responsible, respectful and modest both over >the phone and when in person, even when I turn up in jeans and sneakers ;-p >(Hey that’s what saturdays are for!). I don’t think I’ve come across any >Audi representatives who are not to be honest. And that’s why I’ve just >replaced my old Audi with another one. The quality of the car sells of >course, but the fact that I am treated nicely on the forecourt and also >after I’ve paid has made me want to go for another Audi as well. If any >executive car salesmen were arrogant, it’d have to be Beemer’s wouldn’t it? >Both Commonwealth Audi in Santa Ana, CA and Newport Beach Audi in >Newport Beach, CA have been very professional as well.  Matter of fact I >find their honesty quite refreshing.  I may not like how I have to wait >for weeks on end to schedule service on my cars but at least they are >honest about not being able to do anything until a open date can be >schedule…. >– >Taylor >’89 Audi 200 >’03 Audi S6 Avant >’98 Jeep Cherokee Sport

Response:

> Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

Not a problem here in the UK.  At the end of January I telephoned an Audi dealer to say make tentative enquiries about the RS6.  That evening the salesman personally delivered the hard-bound sales brochure to my front door.  Although they didn’t have a demonstrator available, an arrangement was made for me to test drive the Managing Director’s own car a few days later (even the salesman hadn’t driven it).  The result was that I placed an order immediately on completion of that drive. — Peter Bell  (Note Spamtrap – To reply, replace ‘invalid’ with ‘bellfamily’)

Response:

I’ve bought 3 new cars and never received any real arrogance or bad treatment while shopping anywhere, except way back when I was really young & didn’t know how to shop (and they could tell I was borderline on being able to buy, just by looking at me… ) Not even the above should ever happen! And your undertstanding is misplaced here. No one should know how to shop and no salesman could ever estimate the customer by looks. It happened to me in say 1975 when shopping at variuos BMW dealers. I was dressed poorly -which I always do when free- and one salesman said ‘they’re expensive cars you know!’ I just walked out and never bought a BMW. I did buy 14 Audi cars afterwards. — Ronald — Outgoing mail is AVG certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> Matter of fact I find their honesty quite refreshing.

Definitely, they never lie, and they always tell me where to get the best deal in parts, rather than conning me into paying dealer prices for parts you can get at trade prices easily elsewhere. I’d however prefer to pay them labour costs for the quality and professionalism, and of course honesty and good will in the first place. Jules

Response:

<snip> > helpful.  The one place I put up with a little arrogance was a Honda > dealership, of all places.  (The ‘03 Accord had just come out, and the > dealer was saying stuff like "I sold 30 cars this week" as if to say > "I’m not going to be talked down", so I just left – who wants to drive a > household appliance anyway?  ;-)

I’ve bought 3 new cars and never received any real arrogance or bad treatment while shopping anywhere, except way back when I was really young & didn’t know how to shop (and they could tell I was borderline on being able to buy, just by looking at me… ) Negherbon Audi in Oakland, Calif., where I bought my A4 a while ago, was super professional and respectful from start to finish. Same with the VW dealer where I bought my Passat 5 years previous to that. I usually call the dealership to make an appointment a few days earlier. While at the dealership, I act like a professional businessperson who’s done this before. Look them in the eye, shake hands, look totally relaxed and at home in the dealership, etc. I make it clear whether I’m a today buyer or not to avoid confusion, look confident and organized, speak clearly, and don’t argue or make a bunch of useless provocative comments about the brands they sell. I qualify myself for them early on, telling them about new cars I’ve bought before at nearby dealerships, mentioning how long I’ve been at my job and a little about what I do, so that they don’t doubt my ability to purchase. All of this is more important if you look young, female, or there’s anything else about your superficial appearance that might cause dealership staff to not treat you with the respect that you deserve. With the above, I’ve found that I get treated well, and also that I get to the desired deal a lot faster and with less BS when it comes time to negotiate a purchase. Of course, great care is still necessary to research pricing and avoid falling for tricks or otherwise leaving too much $ on the table when closing a deal, but it’s easier if things start out on the right foot. Needless to say, if I was ever treated badly despite all of the above, I’d just leave and make another appointment at a competing dealership.

Response:

> who wants to drive a > household appliance anyway?  ;-)

Lol, absolutely Mike. But then "isn’t it nice when it simply… works?" Ha ha! You have to admit though, it’s definitely better than Matsui or Philips. Jules

Response:

> I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to > check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but > just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were > arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this > typical of Audi salesmen?

No problem here where I live. All our local Audi salespersons are quite eager to sell, and are polite and highly competent. I cannot visit our local Audi dealership without being tempted to buy me another one, maybe the brand new and exciting A3.   Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher > price tag than comparable MB?

Total bullshit. Troll? And, here, at least, MBs, BMWs and Audis are all more or less in the same price group, there are no major price differencies, they are all in the "Oberklasse." It is not a matter of price, but personal taste and choice. MBs are here more or less for older and well-established males, while BMWs are for younger non-discreet males and females who first and foremost wish to impress others, and are often bought by immigrants here. Audis have class, BMWs not, and are preferred by those among us who want to drive in a discreet, but stylish and luxurious way. Lexus is almost non-existent here, since it is a Japanese brand anyway, and not German, and is more or less only an upgraded Toyota. If I wanted a Lexus, I might just as well just buy a Toyota, or a Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Response:

> Curly writes: >I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB? > My experience (4 different Audis, three different salesmen) is that the cars > sell themselves.  I’ve never seen arrogance or patronization,  YMMV, however. > Dave

Russ Stansky at O’Daniel Porsche/Audi in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, has been courteous and professional throughout all my dealings with him. Regards, Jim

Response:

I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher price tag than comparable MB?

Response:

>I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

[.../..] Troll-o-meter

Response:

Curly writes: >I’m thinking about jumping ship from MB to Audi.  Went to 2 Audi dealers to >check out the 04′ A4 1.8T.  I took a test drive and really liked the car but >just can’t stand the attitude of the salesmen at both locations.  They were >arrogant, patronizing and acted as if they didn’t want my business.  Is this >typical of Audi salesmen?  Perhaps they need the attitude to match the higher >price tag than comparable MB?

My experience (4 different Audis, three different salesmen) is that the cars sell themselves.  I’ve never seen arrogance or patronization,  YMMV, however. Dave http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html

Response:

Question:

hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi cars. Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to know anyone elses best advice for the following : 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they arent covered by my warranty ( 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard to come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off please let me know. thanx

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a > 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi cars. > Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel > while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to > know anyone elses best advice for the following : > 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA > 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they arent > covered by my warranty ( > 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. > I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard to > come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off please > let me know. thanx

wheel bearing

Response:

stingray – do u have any other suggestions? like if there is a cost u know of on average for labor? because i was thinking of buying the parts on the net.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a > 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi > cars. > Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel > while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to > know anyone elses best advice for the following : > 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA > 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they > arent > covered by my warranty ( > 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. > I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard > to > come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off > please > let me know. thanx > wheel bearing

Response:

My bill for 2 front bearings was

Question:

hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi cars. Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to know anyone elses best advice for the following : 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they arent covered by my warranty ( 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard to come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off please let me know. thanx

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a > 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi cars. > Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel > while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to > know anyone elses best advice for the following : > 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA > 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they arent > covered by my warranty ( > 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. > I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard to > come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off please > let me know. thanx

wheel bearing

Response:

stingray – do u have any other suggestions? like if there is a cost u know of on average for labor? because i was thinking of buying the parts on the net.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi there – i am a new owner of a used Audi97 A4 1.8T. My friend who owns a > 1.8T 99 Passat advised me this is a good ng for advice on VW and Audi > cars. > Recently ive been hearing a high pitched sound coming from my rear wheel > while doing about 100kmh on the highway. I live in Toronto and needed to > know anyone elses best advice for the following : > 1. The best price for an estimate at any Audi dealership in Toronto or GTA > 2. What the sound could be – please dont say wheel bearings – they > arent > covered by my warranty ( > 3. what the cost of a wheel bearing job would be with parts n labor. > I understand that audi dealerships that really know their stuff are hard > to > come by so if anyone has advice on places that 100% do not rip u off > please > let me know. thanx > wheel bearing

Response:

My bill for 2 front bearings was

Question:

—8<—cut > Tensioner 058 109 479 B > Roller   058 109 243 C > Belt 153 teeth 058 109 119 C

Thanks for the info, I’ll store this (I have a timing belt change due at 120k km but will probably do at 90k).  /Robert

Response:

Aaak! Get your timing belt changed out after 65k. I have a ‘99 A4 1.8T and the timing belt broke [while driving on freeway no less!] at 78k. This is not uncommon if you have been following posts here – even though Audi recommends change at 105k. Learn from the experience and mistake of others – please! My car has not been the same since! Ab

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > —8<—cut > Tensioner 058 109 479 B > Roller   058 109 243 C > Belt 153 teeth 058 109 119 C > Thanks for the info, I’ll store this (I have a timing belt change due at 120k km > but will probably do at 90k).  /Robert

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Yea, that’s what’s happened to mine. Fitted the revised parts this morning. > Back on the road !!! > Rgds > Alec >   Re: Re: Clatter on A4 at less than 2500 revs >  > Oil was fine (some of the suggestions), so called out RAC. >  > Looks like the cam belt is quite loose (can’t be right – thought Audi > cars >  > corrected this automatically?). >  > Car towed into Audi today – will let you know the outcome, but sounds >  > pricey…! > Probably the cambelt tensioner came loose. There is an updated design for > this > condition.

Glad to hear the problem is fixed without major money paid. Could you pls post model year of your car as well as part number of revised tensioner (and/or when the revised part was issued, if you happen to know). Am very curious to figure out from what time the factory started using the revised tensioner in regular assembly – before or after my car was made . . . /Robert

Response:

Its a 1998 1.8T AEB. The slightly annoying thing is that when the main dealer replaced the timing belt, about 14 months/35K miles ago that is all he did. No recommendations about revised parts !!! This time I decided to get my hands dirty, save

Question:

—8<—cut > Tensioner 058 109 479 B > Roller   058 109 243 C > Belt 153 teeth 058 109 119 C

Thanks for the info, I’ll store this (I have a timing belt change due at 120k km but will probably do at 90k).  /Robert

Response:

Aaak! Get your timing belt changed out after 65k. I have a ‘99 A4 1.8T and the timing belt broke [while driving on freeway no less!] at 78k. This is not uncommon if you have been following posts here – even though Audi recommends change at 105k. Learn from the experience and mistake of others – please! My car has not been the same since! Ab

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > —8<—cut > Tensioner 058 109 479 B > Roller   058 109 243 C > Belt 153 teeth 058 109 119 C > Thanks for the info, I’ll store this (I have a timing belt change due at 120k km > but will probably do at 90k).  /Robert

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Yea, that’s what’s happened to mine. Fitted the revised parts this morning. > Back on the road !!! > Rgds > Alec >   Re: Re: Clatter on A4 at less than 2500 revs >  > Oil was fine (some of the suggestions), so called out RAC. >  > Looks like the cam belt is quite loose (can’t be right – thought Audi > cars >  > corrected this automatically?). >  > Car towed into Audi today – will let you know the outcome, but sounds >  > pricey…! > Probably the cambelt tensioner came loose. There is an updated design for > this > condition.

Glad to hear the problem is fixed without major money paid. Could you pls post model year of your car as well as part number of revised tensioner (and/or when the revised part was issued, if you happen to know). Am very curious to figure out from what time the factory started using the revised tensioner in regular assembly – before or after my car was made . . . /Robert

Response:

Its a 1998 1.8T AEB. The slightly annoying thing is that when the main dealer replaced the timing belt, about 14 months/35K miles ago that is all he did. No recommendations about revised parts !!! This time I decided to get my hands dirty, save