Question:
I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto bliss?
Response:
Aug 2004 with message > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual > tranny car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have > been pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty > understanding the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?
Seems like with a manual transmission, you KNOW it’s going to need to be fixed every so often (clutch related parts wearing out) … If something is wrong with it, they can fix just that part.. With automatics, if something is wrong, seems like the whole damn thing needs to be rebuilt .. and you never know when that’s gonna happen, and it’s hella expensive. With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. For example, when turning left across oncoming traffic.. In my AT car, I punch the gas and hope and pray it won’t lurch forward like it’s in 2nd gear or something. MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started 
I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. All car thieves know how to drive an automatic.. Not all know how to drive a stick Take this article, for example: http://tinyurl.com/68fjo — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!
Response:
>> With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet?
If done properly (rev and either side-step or quickly slip clutch), manuals are faster. In part since they are more efficient, also they tend to have have tighter ratios (but not always now with 6-speed autos). But for normal driving, you can probably be faster with an auto since they torque multiply. > I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer > predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. >So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.
Yeah, but the majority (though not all) of them don’t hold a gear, they’ll upshift when at redline. Some even before. And they also tend to shift pretty slowly. None of these slushbox automanuals are as good as a manual. More lossy. Slow shifts. I haven’t found an automanual I like. It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car. And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) and rev-matching. I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any sporting car.
Response:
>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?
sure. find someone with a 96-00 civic dx hatch, auto tranny. no mods. guaranteed ill outaccellerate them. auto trannies are getting better, more gears, etc. but you cant rev to the sweet spot and drop the clutch like a good ol fashioned stick. im sure mr bone will be around to school you some more. >MT cars don’t usually need a jump.. just roll-started > Ah, in the days before computerized everything. There isn’t a car built > today that can be roll-started.
i just roll started a 98 corolla the other week. bad (OEM!)battery, girl had to get home. its got FI, and OBD2. no problems, she made it home, and her hubby changed the battery. > Strike 2.
seems like youre whiffing, so far. >I like having control over when I shift as opposed to having a computer >predict when I want to shift based on the position of the gas pedal. > So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.
yeah- that gimmick is going the way of LCD dashboards and voices saying "your door is ajar". its good for the pooseys that buy porsches but dont know how to drive stick- makes em feel like theyre "doing something". > Strike 3…
come back when you have some real-world experience, and try again.
Response:
1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?
Response:
a few points: 1. If you spend a great deal of your day in stop-and-go traffic, get back over into the dark side, or a hybrid CVT car if circumstances allow. 2. The shift points of auto’s are set by their engineers for a best guess for most drivers and environments. Performance driving, twisty curvy mountain roads demand that you decide onthe shift points. You know the exact amount of efficiency or performance you want from one second to another and no automatic transmission can anticipate you gunning the motor. 3. When going down proper hills, a manual tranny takes the heat off of the brakes by giving u access to the engine friction. 4. I believe modern manual cars can still be push started. I do it every morning rolling down the hill of my parking lot in my ‘97 Jetta TDI. 5. Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho. There is a loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start them, and they are more expensive. regards, KL
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?
Response:
>1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car.
Atleast $500 cheaper, but if you sit in traffic a lot and have to pay someone to do your clutch replacements, the costs can add up. When I lived in LA, I was always creeping or stop/go. So a clutch every 20-30k isn’t necessarily cheaper.. >2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think.
Maybe.. The manual is probably a bit less labor to disassemble, but I suspect individual hard part costs are comparable.. >I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.
They tow more (due to torque converter multiplication), are more convenient to drive, shift smoothely, attempt to maximize fuel economy, and limit emissions.. I think I’ll stick to my automatic .. as I sit in traffic. > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?
Note: To reply, replace the word ’spam’ embedded in return address with ‘mail’. N37.3 W122.0
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I recently went shopaholic and bought a ‘99 Infiniti G20T manual tranny > car. I used to drive a ’70s Honda Civic with a manual and have been > pining for a taste of what it’s like to drive a stick again. > While it’s been fun, all three of us are having difficulty understanding > the people who defend the manual tranny to the end. > Perhaps you could share why you would choose to never drive an auto > tranny and will shift till your dying day? I’m still enjoying the > experience of shifting, but can see tiring of it in a month. > What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto > bliss?
I prefer to drive manual mainly because shifting and doing footwork is kind of fun, and it makes me feel smug. I don’t really get tired of it, even in stop and go traffic. I think that unless you really good, you can drive more smoothly and get better "lap times" in an automatic. Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.
Response:
>> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?
Yes. Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s have, any of them can have such a system. They just give them proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them (IMHO).
Response:
Basically like an electronic version of VW’s "Autostick" tranny from the 1960s. — KWW ‘65 Beetle (Jenny the IOC) ‘64 Beetle (TBD the Blue Wave)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major >> auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick. >Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic? > Yes. Basically, with electronic controls that all modern AT’s > have, any of them can have such a system. They just give them > proprietary names and charge much more than they cost to add them > (IMHO).
Response:
>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a car. > And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m half-a**ed at) > and rev-matching. I drive both and I far-prefer a manual for any > sporting car. > This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your > heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves
I don’t know if you are referring to a double clutch or not, but heel toeing and rev matching save wear on the clutch and synchros. (and why would you > want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing > out the user replaceable brake pads? ).
My theory in terms of wearing out the engine vs wearing out the brakes is: It’s better to not be able to go than not be able to stop. Just kidding.
Response:
>> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car. And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching. I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. >This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your >heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you >want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing >out the user replaceable brake pads? )
You do NOT use the trans or engine for braking. That’s the whole point of the rev-matching in heal-toe. It is also not really about the synchro. Perhaps you are thinking about double-clutching (where again, there is no wear or engine/trans braking)? Heal-toe is still useful for racing, where I am (badly) trying to apply it. Yes, on a track or autoX. Say you are approaching a 3rd gear turn in 4th. You first brake, and rev-match your downshift to third while still braking. Hit the apex, and then let her fly out. If you don’t heal-toe, you either: a) Have to wait till finished braking to change gears, losing valuable accel time, or b) You change gears without rev-match sending a jolt to your drivetrain which should have the tires already at full traction. You seriously risk disturbing the car in mid-turn, ie spin out. Basically, if you don’t heal-toe in racing, you simply are losing time.
Response:
> 1. Manual is a minimum of $500 cheaper on a new car. > 2. Repair costs of a manual transmission are lower. I think. > I’ll switch to Automatic transmission when I’m elderly.
When will that be, Caroline?
Response:
<snip> > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself,
I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least they used to). > and also, the car > sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by surprise.
Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me <g>)
Response:
> <snip> > > Two things I don’t like about automatic are that you can be pressing no > pedals, and the car will still "go" by itself, > I find this a curious remark – it’s certainly possible to have a manual > in 1st gear with no feet on pedals & the car will creep along (at least > they used to).
That’s coz you had to get it started going first, by engaging the clutch and pressing the gas. Then it makes sense that the car is "just coasting along" when you aren’t pushing the pedals anymore. With an auto, you can let go of the brake ("the car is already stopped, why should I need to use the brakes anymore?") and suddenly the car will start moving by itself again. > and also, the car sometimes upshifts or downshifts and catches you by > surprise. > Huh, how’s that? I really don’t think about up & downshifts when driving > an AT. (may be an age factor here – my boy racer days are well behind me > <g>)
I mean, you’re driving up a hill, and suddenly the car downshifts and you surge forwards
Response:
>> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that". No, > you think you have to come up with bullshit justifications, > seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit > justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit > to it.
Godwin’s 2nd law must be that when one party to a Usenet debate accuses the other of being gay, then he loses (automatically, not manually).
Response:
> So get one with the manual shift control, like just about every major > auto trans has nowadays–like Chrylser’s AutoStick.
Is the Autostick anything like Porsche’s Tiptronic?
Response:
> It all, I think, comes down to that feeling of one-ness with a > car. And of mastering skills such as heel-toeing (which I’m > half-a**ed at) and rev-matching. I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car.
This is so "suddenly it’s 1955" – with modern synchromesh your heel-toeing probably causes more wear than it saves (and why would you want to use your expensive transmission to slow down instead of wearing out the user replaceable brake pads? ). My first AT was my ‘88 Integra & I loved it – I wouldn’t consider a manual for the NYC area these days. YMMV (of course) ;)
Response:
> But like so many others, you can’t simply say "I prefer that". No, you > think you have to come up with bullshit justifications,
seems like your little gay-ass "3-strikes" comment was a bullshit justification, but since you got soundly spanked you dont want to admit to it.
Response:
>>>With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. >Wanna bet? > Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then > releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration 
and if i held the gas and clutch down, then released the clutch quickly? you wouldnt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
> In article > Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? > The point is, it doesn’t come from the manufacturer that way.
Oh. I see. So… "No, no good reason that people shouldn’t modify their cars to suit themselves", other that it seems to bother an anonomous USENET poster?
Response:
@text.usenetserver.com: > With MT, I can get better acceleration from a stop.. > Wanna bet?
Well, if i were to hold the brake down while pushing the gas, then releasing the brake.. I guess I could get the same acceleration — -Chris http://www.ChrisGarcia.com – My Homepage http://www.Evangar.com – Affordable Web Hosting, and much more!
Response:
>5. Those fake auto-shift type transmissions are no good imho. There is a >loss of energy when the linkage is not direct; you loose the engine braking >thing down hills, (I suspect, but am not certain that) you cannot push start >them, and they are more expensive.
The DSG in some VW/Audi cars and the SMG in some BMW cars have more direct linkages without torque converters. However, most automatic transmissions with enhanced manual shift control do have torque converters, which would be the main negative point for those who don’t like the (real or perceived) "slushiness" of torque converters. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Response:
>What keeps you manual’s from moving to the "dark side" lol of auto >bliss?
Manual advantages: Better fuel economy. Faster acceleration. Lower cost. Less expensive repairs (clutch vs. rebuild automatic transmission). For Hondas, better reliability (look for threads about Accord, TL, and Odyssey automatic transmissions failing). Manual disadvantages: Difficult or impossible for a person with disability to drive. — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Response:
> > I drive both and I far-prefer a > manual for any sporting car. > Absolutely! > But I just read someone the other day asking about modifying a Honda > minivan to have a manual transmission–for no other reason than he and > his wife have always driven manual transmissions, and they see no reason > to change that now–DESPITE the fact that they’re now driving a minivan. > They have no concept of tools and appropriateness. They don’t have a > clue about anything.
Please explain revelevance. Any good reason a van driver shouldn’t have a stick? Or is this based on your preconceptions of van drivers?
Comments