Question:
The main reason it isn’t selling well is the lack of four seats. The new Toyota is selling a lot better because suprize- it HAS 4 doors and can fit "amenities" like a child seat and has a trunk. But to be honest, the designs are horribly inefficient. A properly designed hybrid should be getting in the 90mpg+ range. Honda even sells a normal Civic in Japan that is tuned for maximum efficiency over power and it gets nearly 80Mpg.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->[...] > There are a lot of people who do not want this car to succeed! Corporate > shill auto critics high on that list. Many in this news group, heavily > monitered by paid > anti-environmental organizations, want the same. They pretend to talk for > the "average" > American as if they are some kind of populist libertarians. > I know this car very well, first hand. I have seen the reaction of many > others to the car when they saw it up close and suddenly understood too > what it > meant. > So when I hear this kind of "innocent" so called reasonable but all > negative > speculation I instantly am very suspicious. In a way the car is kind of a > bait. It > instantly attracts those paid anti-environmental shills. > Are you one? > > MB > No, I’m not "one". But I’m not taken in by the calls for panic by > environmental fanaticism either.
Thank you for making my point so clear Sodah. — | Also found at http://www.heartland.org (owner of) http://www.heritage.org | | | | Both very un biased organizations who do not recieve a penny from big | | polluters. They did not receive the money listed below. Honestly! | Date,Amount,Comment,Provider 1/1/1999,"25,000",To support School Reform News,Bradley Foundation 10/9/1998,"15,000","To support the publication and distribution of ""School Reform News""",Bradley Foundation 1/1/1998,"10,000",Educational Programs,Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation 1/1/1997,"15,000",Intellectual Ammunition magazine,Olin Foundation 1/1/1996,"15,000",Intellectual Ammunition magazine,Olin Foundation 5/19/1995,"25,000",To support general operations,Bradley Foundation 1/1/1995,"25,000",POLICY NETWORK SUPPORT,Sarah Scaife Foundation 10/25/1994,"3,000","To support the Institute’s attendance and distribution of its environmental education book, Eco-Sanity, at the 1994 WEAC teachers convention",Bradley Foundation 1/1/1993,"10,000","To support a new magazine,Intellectual Ammunition",Olin Foundation 1/1/1993,"50,000",GENERAL OPERATING SUPPORT,Sarah Scaife Foundation 1/1/1992,"50,000",GENERAL OPERATING SUPPORT,Sarah Scaife Foundation 1/1/1992,"10,000",Publication Project,Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation 1/1/1991,"50,000",GENERAL OPERATING SUPPORT,Sarah Scaife Foundation 1/1/1990,"50,000",GENERAL OPERATING SUPPORT,Sarah Scaife Foundation 10/1/1989,"5,000",Industrial Policy in Illinois,Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation 1/1/1989,"50,000",General operating support,Sarah Scaife Foundation 12/1/1988,"5,000",General,Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation 1/1/1988,"50,000",General operating support,Sarah Scaife Foundation 8/1/1987,"5,000",General,Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation 9/30/1986,"10,000",Purpose not available,Carthage Foundation 1/1/1986,"2,578",Education Study,Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation {I (AND THOSE WHO PAY ME SO WELL) do firmly believe that the world needs – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> to find and convert to a reliance on non-CO2 emitting sources of > concentrated energy. (Note I said, "concentrated energy". This precludes > mention of the merely _supplementary_ energy sources of wind, solar, > etc…). Some of this can come from existing nuclear technology (if the > voting public could somehow cast off its irrational fear of it, that is). > But most of it will only come from a massive orchestrated effort involving > massive government and private spending for, and the diverting of much > scientific talent to, the research necessary to seriously develop potential > high-tech alternatives (e.g. fusion, *satellite-solar-microwave, etc…) > But I’ve wandered off topic here, I realize…} > As for my consumer preferences, if a car takes longer than 9 seconds to > accelerate from 0 to 60, I’ll drive it only if I have to (e.g. if I can’t > afford better, etc…). But at over $20,000 USD, the environment can afford > to wait the few more years it should take for hybrid/electric car technology > to approach the point where it can/should be able to offer vehicles with > appeal levels comparable to that of todays conventional automobiles. > Sodah > * "satellite-solar-microwave": my shorthand for the ‘age old’ space-based > proposal in which special satellites would collect solar energy, converting > it from electric into microwave energy in order to transmit it to collecting > stations on earth, where it’s converted back into electricity again.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->[...] > There are a lot of people who do not want this car to succeed! Corporate > shill auto critics high on that list. Many in this news group, heavily monitered by paid > anti-environmental organizations, want the same. They pretend to talk for the "average" > American as if they are some kind of populist libertarians. > I know this car very well, first hand. I have seen the reaction of many > others to the car when they saw it up close and suddenly understood too what it > meant. > So when I hear this kind of "innocent" so called reasonable but all negative > speculation I instantly am very suspicious. In a way the car is kind of a bait. It > instantly attracts those paid anti-environmental shills. > Are you one? > MB
No, I’m not "one". But I’m not taken in by the calls for panic by environmental fanaticism either. {I do firmly believe that the world needs to find and convert to a reliance on non-CO2 emitting sources of concentrated energy. (Note I said, "concentrated energy". This precludes mention of the merely _supplementary_ energy sources of wind, solar, etc…). Some of this can come from existing nuclear technology (if the voting public could somehow cast off its irrational fear of it, that is). But most of it will only come from a massive orchestrated effort involving massive government and private spending for, and the diverting of much scientific talent to, the research necessary to seriously develop potential high-tech alternatives (e.g. fusion, *satellite-solar-microwave, etc…) But I’ve wandered off topic here, I realize…} As for my consumer preferences, if a car takes longer than 9 seconds to accelerate from 0 to 60, I’ll drive it only if I have to (e.g. if I can’t afford better, etc…). But at over $20,000 USD, the environment can afford to wait the few more years it should take for hybrid/electric car technology to approach the point where it can/should be able to offer vehicles with appeal levels comparable to that of todays conventional automobiles. Sodah * "satellite-solar-microwave": my shorthand for the ‘age old’ space-based proposal in which special satellites would collect solar energy, converting it from electric into microwave energy in order to transmit it to collecting stations on earth, where it’s converted back into electricity again.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > > How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > > > > > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > > > > > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > > > > > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > > > > > so far. > > > > I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would > > mean > > > > that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards > > > maximum > > > > fuel economy. > > > > By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established > diesel > > > cars > > > > which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized > > car, > > > > being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an > > > > established technology with parts backup and cost effective > servicing. > > > Name one? The Audi A8 Diesel 55MPG at $60,000? > > I can see that you have a radically different in the US and as such I > was > > considering medium sized European saloons or small harchbacks rather > than > > the Audi which I would place in the larger luxury saloon class. > > <snip> > > > > I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the > equation > > > even > > > > in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the > world > > > (I > > > > think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the > > desire > > > *4 out of 5 Stars in Crash safety test. > > > *The car is has plenty of room in the front seats and is very > comfortable. > > > *What load? If you work on people’s yards, you need a truck. > > > But if you drive to work by yourself there is no need to carry > those > > > extra empty seats around day after day. > > > * Equipment levels? You mean TV in the back, large beer can holders, > foot > > > rests, > > > fancy paint, wood doors, fluffy cushions, leather, ostrich > feathers, > a > > > rihno horn? > > > That’s what the auto makers would have us buy. There’s big profits > on > > > stupid-tech > > > equipment. > > I do take your point, and I’m not trying to argue that the hybrid is a > poor > > car or the wrong choice. My point would be that for those of us who want > > economy with established technology then diesel is a dirty fuel but > cheap. > > I’ll also point out that I don’t like diesel fumes and your choice with > the > > hybrid is an admirable one. > > As to your list of wannabe extras, I would add that many of these add on > > items are built onto the assumption that you need to drive around in a > small > > house. In terms of hi tec equipment, I would rather see more thought > going > > into such extras as anti-sun glass to reduce the A/C load, light plastic > > bits where heavy metal bits are needlessly used and perhaps a little > more > > innovation – Though I understand that car manufacturers don’t like that > too > > much – Ie. The PT Cruiser which is one of the most interesting cars I’ve > > seen in years was almost ditched for being too unlike a typical Chryser. > > Funnilty enough, to drift off topic slightly. I’ve compared the specs of > the > > US and UK PT Cruisers and I did notice that anti lock brakes and > traction > > control were offerered at a higher spec level than the UK version where > only > > the base model is without these (It is also aparent from the price > structure > > that no one will by the base model). Would this be because anti lock is > less > > valuable in dry areas (not forgetting that anti lock brakes increase > your > > stopping distance on surfaces like gravel or sand) and that for the same > > reason traction control would not get much of a workout in the dry since > > there’s not a lot of power to lose traction of. > Before answering let me say this about the PT Cruiser > 210,000 mile life / 23 MPG = 9130 Gallons of gas for life of car x $1.75 > (US avg price) = $15,978 > The present value of that is about $12,900 > Car List price Gas Cost Real Cost Lbs Of CO2 > Emmited > Base PT Cruiser $15,935 $12,900 $28,835 182,610 > Insight $20,180 $4,650 $24,830 65,625 > Maintenance costs. Despite new tech, I would bet Honda > quality over Chrysler’s any day. > I would agree with you here, but a large installed user base means a lot of > people know how to fix any glitches and in the case of a very large user > base then third part parts become available lessing the cost of parts. > Then consider depreciation and historically what each car represents. > The PT cruiser is just another wierd variation of an SUV > Built on a low tech – cheap car chassis. It’s sole purpose > is to make Chrysler money by looking "cute." > People like the PT Cruiser a lot, they are producing at full capacity at for > the forseeable future supply cannot keep up with demand. In this case supply > is about 150,000 units year (From memory). > The PT Cruiser is in some respects one of the best thought out designs I > have seen. In some other respects it falls into the standard set of traps > that seem to have stifled the industry. Too heavy, too slow, poor fuel > economy and an engine that looks like a real dog to work on. > The Insight is almost all new engineering that attempts to > solve a serious world problem. There are only around 6,000 > sold so far. > As I’ve said, I fully repect your decision to buy this car. I don’t have any > problem at all with the concept of hybrid technology and I’m glad that they > are finally on the market. I would however make the following points: > Honda are deemed by many to produce the finest motors available – Any > company getting onto the hybrid bandwagon early will have greater expertise > and product to sell to other manufacturers as interest spreads. I fully > support globalisation in the car market as I’ve personally suffered a > variety of vehicles with some element or another that must have been > designed by an idiot. > You’ve avoided responding to my argument that while neither of us has a > problem with hybrid vehicles, at this particular time diesel will give > comparable fuel economy and is available to those who wish to have more than > two seats. Also, given that diesel engines don’t have catalytic converters, > and that diesel has a higher energy density weight for weight than petrol > then you don’t get the savage reduction in fuel economy when driving around > town. You can run your A/C cheaper in a diesel car than a petrol unit when > judged on a time basis while not moving. > On the issue of lower carbon emmisions, I’m afraid I take the very dim view > that if I don’t burn it, someone else will. The UK has apparently done > rather well in reducing CO emmision (mainly by switching to gas which > produces lots of water vapour as exhaust.) but so what, there are 65 million > of us and what we do will be a drop in the ocean when someone like China > discovers central air conditioning or car ownership. I suppose we could > imagine the same in India too. > I expect that the hybrid vehicle will be a viable concept for quite some > time, as I keep saying, cheap at present means diesel, cheap transport with > a decent range in a few years will be biased towards the hybrid and in the > longer term I actually quite like the idea of nuclear electricty powering a > comprehensive electric rail network.. > On a secondary note, if some of these governmental types (My UK lot > especially) would actually look at the problems they might find some > solutions. I would personally quite like a small electric car given that my > daily mileage is low and that in the built up area I live in I rarely exceed > 40mph. My current vehicle has no collision protection whatsover, it also has > no weighty luxury items – I get by with a sunroof and a stereo as I only > spend about 30 minutes a day spent driving this is fine. So for the record I > have No, A/C, catalytic converter or power anything and because of this I > can manage 40mpg in heaby urban traffic. As a family, I would be happy to > ditch my petrol wagon for a viable alternative, but these alternatives are > yet to be offered.
The Insight frequently "gets" 80 mpg it’s lifetime avg is 60 I will assume yours is closer to 35mpg 30 minutes x 1 mile/minute = 30 miles / 35mpg = .85 gallons per day x 20 lbs each = 17 lbs of CO2 x 300 (avg days driven) = 5,100 lbs of CO2 per year x 20 (# years from now I am assuming your’s and everyone else lemming like behavior will cause a global catstrophe) = 102,000 your personal share (my share will be 35/60 = 59,500 ie 42,500 less) x 500,000,000 other lemmings = … Will I alone make a difference? No. Will you and I together? It had sure better! Get the idea? In this context, think again what the PT Cruiser represents.
Response:
Insight: Interior Head Room (Fr/Rr) 38.8/NA Leg Room (Fr/Rr) 42.9/NA <<=== Notice Shoulder Room (Ft/Rr) 50.5/NA Hip Room (Ft/Rr) 48.7/NA PT-Cruiser: Interior Head Room (Fr/Rr) 40.4/39.6 Leg Room (Fr/Rr) 41.0/40.9 <<=== Shoulder Room (Ft/Rr) 54.6/53.9 Hip Room (Ft/Rr) 54.0/46.8 And it’s leg room that really counts. Could you could conclude that the Insight has more leg room than an SUV ? I’ll bet it’s safer too.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > > > > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > > > > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > > > > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > > > > so far. > > > I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would > mean > > > that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards > > maximum > > > fuel economy. > > > By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established > diesel > > cars > > > which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized > car, > > > being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an > > > established technology with parts backup and cost effective servicing. > > Name one? The Audi A8 Diesel 55MPG at $60,000? > I can see that you have a radically different in the US and as such I was > considering medium sized European saloons or small harchbacks rather than > the Audi which I would place in the larger luxury saloon class. > <snip> > > > I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the equation > > even > > > in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the > world > > (I > > > think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the > desire > > *4 out of 5 Stars in Crash safety test. > > *The car is has plenty of room in the front seats and is very > comfortable. > > *What load? If you work on people’s yards, you need a truck. > > But if you drive to work by yourself there is no need to carry those > > extra empty seats around day after day. > > * Equipment levels? You mean TV in the back, large beer can holders, > foot > > rests, > > fancy paint, wood doors, fluffy cushions, leather, ostrich feathers, > a > > rihno horn? > > That’s what the auto makers would have us buy. There’s big profits on > > stupid-tech > > equipment. > I do take your point, and I’m not trying to argue that the hybrid is a > poor > car or the wrong choice. My point would be that for those of us who want > economy with established technology then diesel is a dirty fuel but cheap. > I’ll also point out that I don’t like diesel fumes and your choice with > the > hybrid is an admirable one. > As to your list of wannabe extras, I would add that many of these add on > items are built onto the assumption that you need to drive around in a > small > house. In terms of hi tec equipment, I would rather see more thought going > into such extras as anti-sun glass to reduce the A/C load, light plastic > bits where heavy metal bits are needlessly used and perhaps a little more > innovation – Though I understand that car manufacturers don’t like that > too > much – Ie. The PT Cruiser which is one of the most interesting cars I’ve > seen in years was almost ditched for being too unlike a typical Chryser. > Funnilty enough, to drift off topic slightly. I’ve compared the specs of > the > US and UK PT Cruisers and I did notice that anti lock brakes and traction > control were offerered at a higher spec level than the UK version where > only > the base model is without these (It is also aparent from the price > structure > that no one will by the base model). Would this be because anti lock is > less > valuable in dry areas (not forgetting that anti lock brakes increase your > stopping distance on surfaces like gravel or sand) and that for the same > reason traction control would not get much of a workout in the dry since > there’s not a lot of power to lose traction of. > Before answering let me say this about the PT Cruiser > 210,000 mile life / 23 MPG = 9130 Gallons of gas for life of car x $1.75 > (US avg price) = $15,978 > The present value of that is about $12,900 > Car List price Gas Cost Real Cost Lbs Of CO2 > Emmited > Base PT Cruiser $15,935 $12,900 $28,835 182,610 > Insight $20,180 $4,650 $24,830 65,625 > Maintenance costs. Despite new tech, I would bet Honda > quality over Chrysler’s any day.
I would agree with you here, but a large installed user base means a lot of people know how to fix any glitches and in the case of a very large user base then third part parts become available lessing the cost of parts. > Then consider depreciation and historically what each car represents. > The PT cruiser is just another wierd variation of an SUV > Built on a low tech – cheap car chassis. It’s sole purpose > is to make Chrysler money by looking "cute."
People like the PT Cruiser a lot, they are producing at full capacity at for the forseeable future supply cannot keep up with demand. In this case supply is about 150,000 units year (From memory). The PT Cruiser is in some respects one of the best thought out designs I have seen. In some other respects it falls into the standard set of traps that seem to have stifled the industry. Too heavy, too slow, poor fuel economy and an engine that looks like a real dog to work on. > The Insight is almost all new engineering that attempts to > solve a serious world problem. There are only around 6,000 > sold so far.
As I’ve said, I fully repect your decision to buy this car. I don’t have any problem at all with the concept of hybrid technology and I’m glad that they are finally on the market. I would however make the following points: Honda are deemed by many to produce the finest motors available – Any company getting onto the hybrid bandwagon early will have greater expertise and product to sell to other manufacturers as interest spreads. I fully support globalisation in the car market as I’ve personally suffered a variety of vehicles with some element or another that must have been designed by an idiot. You’ve avoided responding to my argument that while neither of us has a problem with hybrid vehicles, at this particular time diesel will give comparable fuel economy and is available to those who wish to have more than two seats. Also, given that diesel engines don’t have catalytic converters, and that diesel has a higher energy density weight for weight than petrol then you don’t get the savage reduction in fuel economy when driving around town. You can run your A/C cheaper in a diesel car than a petrol unit when judged on a time basis while not moving. On the issue of lower carbon emmisions, I’m afraid I take the very dim view that if I don’t burn it, someone else will. The UK has apparently done rather well in reducing CO emmision (mainly by switching to gas which produces lots of water vapour as exhaust.) but so what, there are 65 million of us and what we do will be a drop in the ocean when someone like China discovers central air conditioning or car ownership. I suppose we could imagine the same in India too. I expect that the hybrid vehicle will be a viable concept for quite some time, as I keep saying, cheap at present means diesel, cheap transport with a decent range in a few years will be biased towards the hybrid and in the longer term I actually quite like the idea of nuclear electricty powering a comprehensive electric rail network.. On a secondary note, if some of these governmental types (My UK lot especially) would actually look at the problems they might find some solutions. I would personally quite like a small electric car given that my daily mileage is low and that in the built up area I live in I rarely exceed 40mph. My current vehicle has no collision protection whatsover, it also has no weighty luxury items – I get by with a sunroof and a stereo as I only spend about 30 minutes a day spent driving this is fine. So for the record I have No, A/C, catalytic converter or power anything and because of this I can manage 40mpg in heaby urban traffic. As a family, I would be happy to ditch my petrol wagon for a viable alternative, but these alternatives are yet to be offered. Pete
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > so far. > I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would mean > that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards maximum > fuel economy. > By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established diesel cars > which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized car, > being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an > established technology with parts backup and cost effective servicing.
Name one? The Audi A8 Diesel 55MPG at $60,000? > On the other hand, it is clearly far nicer being in a diesel car than behind > one as it is clearly obvious that the muck they pump out of their exhausts > is not going to do anyone the slightest good. > The only drawback I see is that the car > is kind of small. $20k for something > that’s as small as a super small compact > seems a little expensive.
They are not just "compacts" they are hi-tech sports cars. The technical innovations in these cars will blow you away! Also, subtract the gas savings for the 210,000 life. (And the insurance policy against even further increases) > They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda > Insight. He said he can drive all the way > from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. > (I think he’s driving from LA). > I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the equation even > in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the world (I > think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the desire
*4 out of 5 Stars in Crash safety test. *The car is has plenty of room in the front seats and is very comfortable. *What load? If you work on people’s yards, you need a truck. But if you drive to work by yourself there is no need to carry those extra empty seats around day after day. * Equipment levels? You mean TV in the back, large beer can holders, foot rests, fancy paint, wood doors, fluffy cushions, leather, ostrich feathers, a rihno horn? That’s what the auto makers would have us buy. There’s big profits on stupid-tech equipment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> to own a car to demonstrate ones status are all big factors. > A secondary factor would be in losing any potential savings thorough fuel by > spending the money on inflated service costs due to the complexity of the > system. > Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was > at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. > I would’ve seriously considered buying one > if it was on display. But I wonder how much > it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops > know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be > sad if it broke down, then no one could > be found to fix it. > Also if Honda has made so few of these vehicles then I would imagine they > don’t have too many spare parts either.
Yep, but they don’t break! 100,000 miles untill 1st tune up. And of course the 20 lbs of CO2 / gallon saved????? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Pete
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? >I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about >the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! >According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 >so far. >The only drawback I see is that the car >is kind of small. $20k for something >that’s as small as a super small compact >seems a little expensive. >They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda >Insight. He said he can drive all the way >from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. >(I think he’s driving from LA). >Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was >at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. >I would’ve seriously considered buying one >if it was on display. But I wonder how much >it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops >know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be >sad if it broke down, then no one could >be found to fix it. > There are other factors as well: how do you get a family of 4 > from point A to point B in one. I recently bought a minivan, not > because I was terribly interested in a minivan, but because the kids > were growing and we were having trouble getting four of us in a > Saturn. The other area of concern – not a big factor for most of the > US – is how the car will perform in the cold. Vehicles tend to take > exception to being driven at -40C and no-one knows how these will > handle extreme temperatures…yet.
You are absolutely right. I have driven my 4 kids all over the country in a series of station wagons and vans. There does need to be something good for families of more than 4. My answer now is to either keep an old Van (NOT SUV) for the long and short trips. An Insight for commuting. Also with the gas savings, renting a Van once a year for long drives would work. Remember, it’s those very kids who will be hurt most from global warming. You’ve got to figure out something. Maybe just buy used cars untill car manufacturers come to their senses.
Response:
> Well, since you say it’s close. the Insight is actually 61/68 (and can be > driven 70/80) > and the price of gas is more around $1.75 (so far this year) and to make > the CIVIC > equivalent, you’d have to add A/C
The basic Insight does not include A/C either. It adds about $1200 to the price, bringing it up from $19400, to $20600 (sticker). I don’t have time to compare the other options in detail. You can get A/C as well as power windows, locks, other comfort features, etc. on the Civic by moving up to the LX model from the basic DX model, which brings the sticker up from $13200 to $15250. Note, however, that discounts of over $1000 are readily available on Civics — CarsDirect.com lists the DX at $11932 and the LX at $13781 here in Northern California. (FWIW, they also list the Insight at $440 off.)
Response:
I used the 2001 model and price. A/C is included in the 2001 price. (Not the 2000) And of course if you want to talk discounts, I paid $17,000 for my 2000, and they have been selling for $16,500. Far less than many equivalent pretty but old-tech CO2 pump sports cars today made by BMW, Audi, Mecedes and Porsch.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > > so far. > I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would mean > that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards > maximum > fuel economy. > By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established diesel > cars > which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized car, > being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an > established technology with parts backup and cost effective servicing. > Name one? The Audi A8 Diesel 55MPG at $60,000?
I can see that you have a radically different in the US and as such I was considering medium sized European saloons or small harchbacks rather than the Audi which I would place in the larger luxury saloon class. <snip> > I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the equation > even > in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the world > (I > think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the
desire > *4 out of 5 Stars in Crash safety test. > *The car is has plenty of room in the front seats and is very comfortable. > *What load? If you work on people’s yards, you need a truck. > But if you drive to work by yourself there is no need to carry those > extra empty seats around day after day. > * Equipment levels? You mean TV in the back, large beer can holders, foot > rests, > fancy paint, wood doors, fluffy cushions, leather, ostrich feathers, a > rihno horn? > That’s what the auto makers would have us buy. There’s big profits on > stupid-tech > equipment.
I do take your point, and I’m not trying to argue that the hybrid is a poor car or the wrong choice. My point would be that for those of us who want economy with established technology then diesel is a dirty fuel but cheap. I’ll also point out that I don’t like diesel fumes and your choice with the hybrid is an admirable one. As to your list of wannabe extras, I would add that many of these add on items are built onto the assumption that you need to drive around in a small house. In terms of hi tec equipment, I would rather see more thought going into such extras as anti-sun glass to reduce the A/C load, light plastic bits where heavy metal bits are needlessly used and perhaps a little more innovation – Though I understand that car manufacturers don’t like that too much – Ie. The PT Cruiser which is one of the most interesting cars I’ve seen in years was almost ditched for being too unlike a typical Chryser. Funnilty enough, to drift off topic slightly. I’ve compared the specs of the US and UK PT Cruisers and I did notice that anti lock brakes and traction control were offerered at a higher spec level than the UK version where only the base model is without these (It is also aparent from the price structure that no one will by the base model). Would this be because anti lock is less valuable in dry areas (not forgetting that anti lock brakes increase your stopping distance on surfaces like gravel or sand) and that for the same reason traction control would not get much of a workout in the dry since there’s not a lot of power to lose traction of.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > > > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > > > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > > > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > > > so far. > > I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would > mean > > that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards > maximum > > fuel economy. > > By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established diesel > cars > > which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized > car, > > being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an > > established technology with parts backup and cost effective servicing. > Name one? The Audi A8 Diesel 55MPG at $60,000? > I can see that you have a radically different in the US and as such I was > considering medium sized European saloons or small harchbacks rather than > the Audi which I would place in the larger luxury saloon class. > <snip> > > I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the equation > even > > in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the world > (I > > think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the > desire > *4 out of 5 Stars in Crash safety test. > *The car is has plenty of room in the front seats and is very comfortable. > *What load? If you work on people’s yards, you need a truck. > But if you drive to work by yourself there is no need to carry those > extra empty seats around day after day. > * Equipment levels? You mean TV in the back, large beer can holders, foot > rests, > fancy paint, wood doors, fluffy cushions, leather, ostrich feathers, a > rihno horn? > That’s what the auto makers would have us buy. There’s big profits on > stupid-tech > equipment. > I do take your point, and I’m not trying to argue that the hybrid is a poor > car or the wrong choice. My point would be that for those of us who want > economy with established technology then diesel is a dirty fuel but cheap. > I’ll also point out that I don’t like diesel fumes and your choice with the > hybrid is an admirable one. > As to your list of wannabe extras, I would add that many of these add on > items are built onto the assumption that you need to drive around in a small > house. In terms of hi tec equipment, I would rather see more thought going > into such extras as anti-sun glass to reduce the A/C load, light plastic > bits where heavy metal bits are needlessly used and perhaps a little more > innovation – Though I understand that car manufacturers don’t like that too > much – Ie. The PT Cruiser which is one of the most interesting cars I’ve > seen in years was almost ditched for being too unlike a typical Chryser. > Funnilty enough, to drift off topic slightly. I’ve compared the specs of the > US and UK PT Cruisers and I did notice that anti lock brakes and traction > control were offerered at a higher spec level than the UK version where only > the base model is without these (It is also aparent from the price structure > that no one will by the base model). Would this be because anti lock is less > valuable in dry areas (not forgetting that anti lock brakes increase your > stopping distance on surfaces like gravel or sand) and that for the same > reason traction control would not get much of a workout in the dry since > there’s not a lot of power to lose traction of.
Before answering let me say this about the PT Cruiser 210,000 mile life / 23 MPG = 9130 Gallons of gas for life of car x $1.75 (US avg price) = $15,978 The present value of that is about $12,900 Car List price Gas Cost Real Cost Lbs Of CO2 Emmited Base PT Cruiser $15,935 $12,900 $28,835 182,610 Insight $20,180 $4,650 $24,830 65,625 Maintenance costs. Despite new tech, I would bet Honda quality over Chrysler’s any day. Then consider depreciation and historically what each car represents. The PT cruiser is just another wierd variation of an SUV Built on a low tech – cheap car chassis. It’s sole purpose is to make Chrysler money by looking "cute." The Insight is almost all new engineering that attempts to solve a serious world problem. There are only around 6,000 sold so far. Which do you think is a better value now and over time? —- Driving conditions in the US are far more varied than in the UK In the South West (excpet in the mountains which are winding and very bad in winter) roads are always dry straight and smooth. In most of the mid west there are long straight distances but winters can be bad. The south rarely gets snow, but outside of interstates often has poor quality rural roads (xcpt cities & subburbs) . Lake states get a lot of snow. North east is very much like England. Northern New England a lot like Scotland. I doubt the ABS bundeling has anything to do with US vs UK roads. Maybe it has to do with the way Brits approach options vs Americans. Maybe the US cars are made at a different plant, one with different costs of adding breaks. Most likely, with all the market research Chrysler does it’s just the stastistically most profitable buying pattern.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A) > The gas saving is not trivial.A new car today of the Insight quality will > last 210,000 miles. > When you but the car, in addition to the price there is a guarenteed > expenditure on gasoline > of Net-present-value (210,000 / MPG * avg price of gas, over apx 14 years) > Mileage on > those traditional cars is so close to each other (ie 22 MPG vs 27 MPG) – it > makes little difference. > A comparable car is a basic Honda Civic. 32 city/39 hwy. $13,000 MSRP. > 0-60 in 8.4 seconds. > Things like repair, hyper saftey, style become more important. But the > Insight gets 2 to 3 > times the mileage of a normal car. The Insight will drive the 210,000 with > less than 3,500 gallons > will need 8,400 costing > $12,610, that’s $7,350 less. > A civic would burn about 6000 gallons or $9000, for a savings of about > $4000. Even without considering the time value of money, that’s just > not economical, though it is close.
Well, since you say it’s close. the Insight is actually 61/68 (and can be driven 70/80) and the price of gas is more around $1.75 (so far this year) and to make the CIVIC equivalent, you’d have to add A/C ( Automatic Climate control system not available) and a cassette player. One would have to do without ABS, power locks an windows, and would have to install own remote power locks. No trip computer either. We won’t go into the style. So actually yopu’ve got to add another $1,200 or so to the CIVIC for a still inferior car as far as features go- Gas Car Insight 210000/63.5 * 1.75 = $5,610 Purchase 20,180 CIVIC 210000/35.5 * 1.75 = $10,352 13,200 +Equivalent equipment 1,200 16,200 Calculated Difference $4,742 ( 5,780) Use a 14 year life. Present value of difference $3,826 ( 5,780) So, you’re right by $1,954 at list price, assuming the price of gas stays the same. Because if the 1) 14 year avg is– 2) the PV of the gas saving is– (1) (2) (3) $1.75 $7,652 $10,932 So OK, if you’re an optimist, buy the CIVIC today. Even better- Toyota Echo 2Dr 210000/37.5 * 1.75 = $9,800 Of course don’t buy a same price, even fewer features at 25/33 MPG Ford Focus 210000/29 * 1.75 = $12,627 Toyota Camray 210000/28.5 * 1.75= $12,894 Of course if you want to look sporty and INTELLEGENT you may want to try -> 2001 BMW Z3 21/28 ($37,900) 2001 BMW Z8 13/21 ($128,000) 2001 Porsche Boxster 18/26 ($50,200) 2001 Porsche 911 Carrera 17/25 ($66,500) 2001 Mazda MX-5 Miata 23/28 ($25,715) 2001 Audi TT 20/28 ($38,900) 2001 Mercedes-Benz SLK-Class 18/27 ($43,900) 2001 Land Rover Range Rover 12/15 ($62,000) (They’re technically about as advanced as the Insight) Oh, I forgot those extra gallons of gas you are burning – each one adds 20 lbs of CO2 to the atmosphere. That will still be there for another 50 – 100 years or so. No present value or anything. Car Extra CO2 CIVIC 52,168 ECHO 45,858 Focus 78,686 Camray 81,227 Boxter 108,858 LandRover 244,969 But what do you care? You’re just an environmentalist.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A) > The gas saving is not trivial.A new car today of the Insight quality will > last 210,000 miles. > When you but the car, in addition to the price there is a guarenteed > expenditure on gasoline > of Net-present-value (210,000 / MPG * avg price of gas, over apx 14 years) > Mileage on > those traditional cars is so close to each other (ie 22 MPG vs 27 MPG) – it > makes little difference. > A comparable car is a basic Honda Civic. 32 city/39 hwy. $13,000 MSRP. > 0-60 in 8.4 seconds. > Things like repair, hyper saftey, style become more important. But the > Insight gets 2 to 3 > times the mileage of a normal car. The Insight will drive the 210,000 with > less than 3,500 gallons > will need 8,400 costing > $12,610, that’s $7,350 less. > A civic would burn about 6000 gallons or $9000, for a savings of about > $4000. Even without considering the time value of money, that’s just > not economical, though it is close.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > so far. > The only drawback I see is that the car > is kind of small. $20k for something > that’s as small as a super small compact > seems a little expensive. > They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda > Insight. He said he can drive all the way > from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. > (I think he’s driving from LA). > Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was > at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. > I would’ve seriously considered buying one > if it was on display. But I wonder how much > it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops > know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be > sad if it broke down, then no one could > be found to fix it. > Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
From what I understand, Toyota and Honda are only building a very limited number of the hybrids, and about half of them are being sold in Japan. To say that sales are doing poorly is misleading. If each one only builds a couple of thousand each year and they sell every one of them (at a loss, from what I understand), how is that poor sales? -DCE
Response:
> How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > so far.
I think that at this particular time, to consider a hybrid car would mean that your assesment of the vehicle is very heavily weighted towards maximum fuel economy. By comparison, from a UK perspective, there are well established diesel cars which will happily return 60mpg with the bonus of being a full sized car, being capable of going 600+ miles per tankful and being part of an established technology with parts backup and cost effective servicing. On the other hand, it is clearly far nicer being in a diesel car than behind one as it is clearly obvious that the muck they pump out of their exhausts is not going to do anyone the slightest good. > The only drawback I see is that the car > is kind of small. $20k for something > that’s as small as a super small compact > seems a little expensive. > They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda > Insight. He said he can drive all the way > from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. > (I think he’s driving from LA).
I think for most people, fuel pricing is not that high up the equation even in the UK where we are blessed with the highest fuel prices in the world (I think). Safety, load carrying, comfort and equipment levels and the desire to own a car to demonstrate ones status are all big factors. A secondary factor would be in losing any potential savings thorough fuel by spending the money on inflated service costs due to the complexity of the system. > Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was > at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. > I would’ve seriously considered buying one > if it was on display. But I wonder how much > it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops > know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be > sad if it broke down, then no one could > be found to fix it.
Also if Honda has made so few of these vehicles then I would imagine they don’t have too many spare parts either. Pete
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? >I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about >the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! >According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 >so far. >The only drawback I see is that the car >is kind of small. $20k for something >that’s as small as a super small compact >seems a little expensive. >They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda >Insight. He said he can drive all the way >from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. >(I think he’s driving from LA). >Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was >at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. >I would’ve seriously considered buying one >if it was on display. But I wonder how much >it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops >know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be >sad if it broke down, then no one could >be found to fix it.
There are other factors as well: how do you get a family of 4 from point A to point B in one. I recently bought a minivan, not because I was terribly interested in a minivan, but because the kids were growing and we were having trouble getting four of us in a Saturn. The other area of concern – not a big factor for most of the US – is how the car will perform in the cold. Vehicles tend to take exception to being driven at -40C and no-one knows how these will handle extreme temperatures…yet.
Response:
> A) > The gas saving is not trivial.A new car today of the Insight quality will > last 210,000 miles. > When you but the car, in addition to the price there is a guarenteed > expenditure on gasoline > of Net-present-value (210,000 / MPG * avg price of gas, over apx 14 years) > Mileage on > those traditional cars is so close to each other (ie 22 MPG vs 27 MPG) – it > makes little difference.
A comparable car is a basic Honda Civic. 32 city/39 hwy. $13,000 MSRP. 0-60 in 8.4 seconds. > Things like repair, hyper saftey, style become more important. But the > Insight gets 2 to 3 > times the mileage of a normal car. The Insight will drive the 210,000 with > less than 3,500 gallons > will need 8,400 costing > $12,610, that’s $7,350 less.
A civic would burn about 6000 gallons or $9000, for a savings of about $4000. Even without considering the time value of money, that’s just not economical, though it is close.
Response:
You superstitious bull shitters! I bought one last September 2000, have 24,000 miles on it. Car is so good my son bought one a couple of months ago, and I bought another last month for $17,000 on Ebay.com
> It’s probably a combination of factors. First and foremost Honda doesn’t > want this to be a mass market car, at least not yet. They are subsidizing > the car heavily. I’ve seen estimates all the way up to $20,000 per car > (Honda doesn’t release these numbers).
—- By using serial numbers it is estimated that there are about 8000 or 9000 on road today. —- Therefore the number that are > available is low. If you go to your local US Honda dealer there probably > won’t be one on the lot, or at least not more than 1.
Has little to do with per-unit profit. It has to do with higher profit on larger vehicles. Introducing a car > that is a failure (poor maintenance record, etc.) does nobody any good. > It’s not uncommon for the auto makers to introduce a car in a limited manner > to verify customer acceptance.
A little bit test. More important in this case is that Honda made these cars in an attempt to meet California’s new pollution laws. Also since the hybrid features of this car > is relative new they may be wanting to see if any design changes are > necessary before introduction.
With the exception of a CVS automatic tranmission there is NO CHANGE at all between 2000 and 2001models. If Honda were studying the car with design changes in mind as you propose, you’d think there would be more. > But you’re right in that in the traditional sense it’s not a bargain. If > you’re wanting an economical car you can get a more economical one than this > without trying very hard. The Insight my get great gas mileage, but higher > up front costs and probably higher maintenance costs (is the hybrid > architecture as solid as the traditional engine?
A) The gas saving is not trivial.A new car today of the Insight quality will last 210,000 miles. When you but the car, in addition to the price there is a guarenteed expenditure on gasoline of Net-present-value (210,000 / MPG * avg price of gas, over apx 14 years) Mileage on those traditional cars is so close to each other (ie 22 MPG vs 27 MPG) – it makes little difference. Things like repair, hyper saftey, style become more important. But the Insight gets 2 to 3 times the mileage of a normal car. The Insight will drive the 210,000 with less than 3,500 gallons will need 8,400 costing $12,610, that’s $7,350 less. Even if one selles the car before the 210,000 the value of gas savings in the remaining mileage should economically be reflected in the re-sale value. (Especially if gas prices are higher say 14 years from now.) In other words at $19,000 (that’s what they really cost with some bargian hunting) that’s the same as buying a $12,650 car with lesser MPG. B) Parts are expensive. But who needs them? It’s 100,000 miles until the 1st tune up. Of course they’re still young, but after 24,000 miles my 1st Insight runs like a top. The cars are Honda quality. Just in case as most Insight buyers do, I bought the 100,000 mile extended care warrenty for about $800. Also the engine is much smaller (only weighs 120 lbs) and has less raw stress to deal with. The technology in this car is incredible. But it’s all brains, not brawn. Probably not yet). I > listened to a radio interview with an auto critic that drove one > coast-to-coast a few days ago. The Honda had a 5 speed manual transmission. > He had to use the transmission much more than he was used to. He wondered > at the American acceptance of a car that was so underpowered.
Under powered? I have heard that crap! This is NOT A SLOW CAR. It maintains 80 up long fairly steep hills with extra power to pass. I’ve had it over 92, still accelerating. Lost nerve when a patrol car pulled out of side ramp. Because of the aero dynamics if is the same driving at that speed as it is 40. 0-60 in 12 sec is plenty to pull out on interstate. . > So right now it’s a car that will appeal to a very small segment of the > market. That segment puts environmental concerns above things like price, > comfort, or power.
Not so fast. This car is comfortable! There is more room in the front seats than in most cars – check Consumer Reports. At 6 ft, 220 lbs I have room to spare. Seats are nicely shaped and whole cockpit is very well designed. Not plush but simple functional and very intellegently. Long trips are quite relaxing. But any new product goes through a similar stage. The > interesting part will be when we see if the general population follows the > early adopters.
There are a lot of people who do not want this car to succeed! Corporate shill auto critics high on that list. Many in this news group, heavily monitered by paid anti-environmental organizations, want the same. They pretend to talk for the "average" American as if they are some kind of populist libertarians. I know this car very well, first hand. I have seen the reaction of many others to the car when they saw it up close and suddenly understood too what it meant. So when I hear this kind of "innocent" so called reasonable but all negative speculation I instantly am very suspicious. In a way the car is kind of a bait. It instantly attracts those paid anti-environmental shills. Are you one? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> MB
Response:
> How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 > so far.
http://www.insightcentral.net/sales.html John Hughes
Response:
Hybrid cars = combination of TWO bad ideas!
Response:
It’s probably a combination of factors. First and foremost Honda doesn’t want this to be a mass market car, at least not yet. They are subsidizing the car heavily. I’ve seen estimates all the way up to $20,000 per car (Honda doesn’t release these numbers). Therefore the number that are available is low. If you go to your local US Honda dealer there probably won’t be one on the lot, or at least not more than 1. Introducing a car that is a failure (poor maintenance record, etc.) does nobody any good. It’s not uncommon for the auto makers to introduce a car in a limited manner to verify customer acceptance. Also since the hybrid features of this car is relative new they may be wanting to see if any design changes are necessary before introduction. But you’re right in that in the traditional sense it’s not a bargain. If you’re wanting an economical car you can get a more economical one than this without trying very hard. The Insight my get great gas mileage, but higher up front costs and probably higher maintenance costs (is the hybrid architecture as solid as the traditional engine? Probably not yet). I listened to a radio interview with an auto critic that drove one coast-to-coast a few days ago. The Honda had a 5 speed manual transmission. He had to use the transmission much more than he was used to. He wondered at the American acceptance of a car that was so underpowered. So right now it’s a car that will appeal to a very small segment of the market. That segment puts environmental concerns above things like price, comfort, or power. But any new product goes through a similar stage. The interesting part will be when we see if the general population follows the early adopters. MB
Response:
One of the reasons is the poor performace. The 0 – 60 is around 12.5 sec. Its underpowered, so one can imagine trying to get thru big hills and mountains with trucks bearing down on you from behind at 85+ mph. I road rally with the Sports Car Club of America. Road Rallies are driving precision contests, not races. The races SCCA does are called Pro Rallies. When the hybrids 1st came out, I considered them, but the 12.5 0 – 60 is just a wee bit slow for that. When I’m not using my own car, that is when we fly to a rally and rent a car, its usually a Pontiac Grand Am – 4 or 6 cylinder is enough. If the hybrids could match the performance of a Pontiac Grand Am, esp. with the 6, I’d buy one, hands down. A hybrid with some horsepower that only got 55 mpg instead of 70 would be just great with me. DPH – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >It’s probably a combination of factors. First and foremost Honda doesn’t >want this to be a mass market car, at least not yet. They are subsidizing >the car heavily. I’ve seen estimates all the way up to $20,000 per car >(Honda doesn’t release these numbers). Therefore the number that are >available is low. If you go to your local US Honda dealer there probably >won’t be one on the lot, or at least not more than 1. Introducing a car >that is a failure (poor maintenance record, etc.) does nobody any good. >It’s not uncommon for the auto makers to introduce a car in a limited manner >to verify customer acceptance. Also since the hybrid features of this car >is relative new they may be wanting to see if any design changes are >necessary before introduction. >But you’re right in that in the traditional sense it’s not a bargain. If >you’re wanting an economical car you can get a more economical one than this >without trying very hard. The Insight my get great gas mileage, but higher >up front costs and probably higher maintenance costs (is the hybrid >architecture as solid as the traditional engine? Probably not yet). I >listened to a radio interview with an auto critic that drove one >coast-to-coast a few days ago. The Honda had a 5 speed manual transmission. >He had to use the transmission much more than he was used to. He wondered >at the American acceptance of a car that was so underpowered. >So right now it’s a car that will appeal to a very small segment of the >market. That segment puts environmental concerns above things like price, >comfort, or power. But any new product goes through a similar stage. The >interesting part will be when we see if the general population follows the >early adopters. >MB
Response:
How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! According to the news broadcast they only sold 900 so far. The only drawback I see is that the car is kind of small. $20k for something that’s as small as a super small compact seems a little expensive. They showed Ed Begley driving the Honda Insight. He said he can drive all the way from LA to San Francisco on $10 worth of gas. (I think he’s driving from LA). Too bad I didn’t see any Honda Insight when I was at my local Honda dealer earlier this year. I would’ve seriously considered buying one if it was on display. But I wonder how much it costs to maintain. Do local (Honda) shops know how to fix hybrid cars? It would be sad if it broke down, then no one could be found to fix it. Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server
Response:
> How come hybrid car sales are doing so poorly? > I just saw a news broadcast on CNBC about > the Honda Insight which gets 68 miles per gallon! > According to the news broadcast they only sold 900
I’ve seen 3 Toyota Prius (sp?) in the past 6-8 weeks in my commute between Salt Lake and Prove UT. Pretty good considering UT isn’t known as a hot bed of progressive thought….
Response:
— Dave (who’d swap his TTQ with working auto adjusting lights for an A8 with defective ones anytime 